Viability of Social Security could be extended to at least 2070 with relatively minor tweaking of benefit calculations if done soon. Medicare, however, will go "under water" in the next four or five years, even sooner if Obama's plan to rob $634 billion from the Medicare budget is adopted by his Congressional crime partners. This theft amounts to $16,000 for every senior; $32,000 for every senior couple.

Social Security has never been or was designed to be a redistributive tax. The more money one puts in the more money one has gotten over the history of the tax as well as a cap that once a person makes so much they are no longer taxed. Now an elimination of that limit along without an increase in benefit would make it a redistribution tax.

The social security tax has always been what I would call somewhat of a legal Ponzi scheme. Where the country had more people paying in then taking out and the trouble has come from the shift of a much older population that now has more people taking out then putting back in.

My father though said it best when he said “my father got a lot more then he put in, I will get around what I put in and good luck to you”.

Another hard truth that in the day of political buzzwords people do not like all income tax systems in all government types is meant as a redistributive system in some way. It prevents a collapse of government and wide spread social discourse. Like it or not the people who make a lot more are totally dependent on other people making a lot less as money does not grow on trees. If everyone paid the same the majority of people would not be able to afford some of the most basic needs and the problem with poor or low middle income is not just work ethic to get more money.

If people would stop and study American history and our income tax system and bother to read what socialism or what actual socialistic governments are like they would be embarrassed with the comparison of the government trying to keep the banking system afloat. The income tax on the wealthy has never been as low and since the tax act of 1982 substantially lower then in the past. All the fighting is over minor percent points currently. If everyone wants to see a great depression instead of a recession then the government could have let the banking system implode.

xanzzz, The people had a lower income tax than now. Before 1913 there was no income tax. It was unconstitutional until a constitutional amendment that year. How in the world did the country ever get along without income and social security taxes. People must have had to depend on themselves or each other instead of this completely inefficient, unfair, monstrosity of a government we have now. We are going to be regulated and taxed into oblivion, enslaving ourselves to the government and the minions who support it.

And before the Civil War we did not have any income tax at all. My point being the rush to claim Obama a socialist and Bush tax cuts were removal of shackles from the oppressed wealthy does not have any merit.

Believe me I am all for fiscal responsibility and minimal government, but I just have yet to see any Republican President and Congress do a darn thing about it. The more the wealth gap spreads the less chance it can happen.

Michael H, I agree if a company does not work do not bail it out but the banking system is a completely different animal and one should study what impact it has on all of us before comparing it to some ordinary business.

Why dont you right wing idiots wake up, do a little research and quit believe everything people w/ an agenda tell you. The rich are not the only Americans out there. I would almost bet that most of you that subscribe to the rights agenda have needed the government for something. but like so much of the right wing it is do as i say not as i do. wake up!

rmap, i would guess you live off the govt dime
how many welfare recepients can you think of that have
created jobs?

keep paying ?
21 million illegal aliens are counting on you.

and dont forget that inner city 15% of the population that collect over 80% of all benefits.

RMAP ,now thats telling them.i thought that i was the only one out here that still beleives in the american way of life. i have seen too much right wing extremist crap in my travels and and it discusts me to no end.take the money out of the hands of rich, they have had it long enough! ! ! !P.S. if you would have paid your tax,s instead of writing them off we wouldnt be in this mess.

I bagan paying social security when I was 14. There was no choice. I am retired now. Had I invested that money myself over the years who knows whether I would be ahead or not. It would have depended on my intelligence and my investment savy. I now know that my contributions went into no investment plan, but rather the general fund. I am probably going to be OK but younger people need to know this is not going to work out for them. The inflated money may be there but it's not going to buy much. Start a 401K or an IRA next week.

The last time I saw a calculation that was from a independent source, it reflected a return on investment of less than 1%.

When implemented it was called a "trust fund". And, the Congressional "promise" was that the money was kept aside...not in the general treasury. They lied. And, every congress since has LIED. So the problem is simple congressional theft

Now they want to pass an Amnesty bill that would retroactively vest initially 20,000 illegals...and as soon as the "qualified" relatives got here...it would be 50,000 mexicans that our "system" would have to support.

It's time to stop this runaway train.

Ten men go out for a beer, each day and it cost $100. They agreed to pay as they pay their taxes, so...

the first 4 men (poorist) paid nothing
the fifth man paid $1
The sixth man paid $3
The seventh paid $ 7
The eight paid $ 12
The ninth paid $ 18
the tenth (richest) paid $59

For a while they seemed quite happy and they were such good customers that the owner said "since you are such good customers, I'll give you a discount..your daily cost will be $80. They wanted to still pay the way they pay taxes but how would each "get their fair share"

The four who paid nothing, would still pay nothing but what is a "fair share" for the other six. If they divided it equally, each would get $3.33. But if they subtracted that from each person's "share", the fifth & Sixth would each be paid to drink their beer. So, the bartender said reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount...and worked out the following:

the first 4 still paid zero
the fifth now paid zero (100% savings)
the sixth now paid $2 ( 33%savings)
the seventh now paid $5 (28% savings)
the eighth now paid $9 (25% savings)
the ninth now paid $14 (22% savings)
the tenth now paid $49 (16% savings)

Each was better off...but they begin to compare their savings.

The sixth man said I only got $1...and he (10th man) got $10.
He got 10 times more than I got.
Yeh, said the seventh man, he got ten times more than I got.
Wait a minute yelled the first 4, we didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor. The wealthy get all the breaks.

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks so when the nine sat down to pay the bill they found out they didn't have enough between all of them to pay the bill.

They didn't have enough to pay even HALF the bill.

And that is how the tax system works.

And, that is what is going on in America today. Over 50% of the people pay nothing.....and their the ones screaming to soak the rich.

Add 50 million illegal immigrants and how do you think it will work. Maybe someone won't show up to foot the bill.

I know I won't

DDmkoo1 that is just like a mindless idiot to speak w/out knowing anything. I guess you know what I do for a living huh? of course not judgeing by your rhetoric you are not capable of comprehension. I have a profeesional white collar job, how about you? I am in no need of asistance; however, i am glad to help those that need it, remember we are Americans it is our duty to look out for our own. Not just peple who think like me. But of course a low brow like you cannot concieve such a notion. my only advice is for you not to reproduce.

O.K. michael h, after years of deregulation and the trickle down theory that didn't work out so well "obviously" what is your plan to fix everything? you must have one or how could you say they don't know what they are doing? I think that people that have access to more relevant info than you are making decisions based on the info not the ideology.

Instead of all the talk and blame, the Obama administration is going after the money: corporations dodging taxes off-shore, the $60/employee for jobs shipped overseas, the TARP money that went for bonuses (many are paying back voluntarily, regulation of banking and financial corporations or return of the TARP money, IRS scrutiny of wealthy taxpayers who have no tax liability, creating jobs so that citizens can pay taxes. His opponents are using his honesty and transparency--showing what government actually costs instead of hiding it--against him.
Remember too, there were a lot of middle and upper income people going to seminars and learning how to buy property with nothing down--a relative of mine in another city is now processing a $2 million home for foreclosure.
The question that should be asked is what individuals, corporations, banks and countries became wealthy when trillions were lost her in foreclosed property, declining stock, 401K losses, and bankruptcies. Investigating the theft of America's prosperity is very important.

I'm personally tired of the left-wing extremest nuts who think that we all need the government to baby sit us. You have apparently been brain-washed by CNN or NBC or other liberal media. Maybe you attended one of our ultra liberal colleges. Think on your own for once. Or keep listening to movie stars. They certainly know what's good for us poor,stupid middle-class folk.

Recently I lost my job. I asked a wise friend to help me plot a game plan to survive, financially.......he said, first buy a new home.....a really expensive one. All new furniture, and do up the landscaping, first class.

You'll want a new car...Mercedes preferably. Your wife will want a nice SUV to haul the kids in. The Escalade is appropriate. Plan some summer travel for the kids....there will be "deals" in the ultra luxery hotels that you can't pass up.

Kid's will fare better in those high price private schools and they'll certainly enjoy the super rich summer camps that will be opening up soon.

You can borrow the money against the kids Roth IRA and by the time they need the money the tooth fairy will have replaced it all.

After all, it's a brave new world and the financial fundamentals of the past really don't mean much. Our forefathers were just fuddy duddy's and those basics that they paid for in blood just don't mean much any more.

All those terms are hooey. You can just ignore history. After all Russia would have been successful if they'd just pushed the non-working , non-taxpaying bunch up another 20%.

And, just wait until we get the 20 million illegals, legalized so they can bring in another 30 million under the family rule. California is bankrupt trying to meet their educational, welfare, crime and every other need...we can get the rest of the Country to follow pretty quick....and it's "OK"........cause they'll all vote Democratic.

We're at 50% now not pulling their weight and with Barack at the helm we'll get there. He has appointed 15 tax cheats that know how to beat the system. Right on brother (comrade)

@lbc: ten men go for a beer...

How can any nanny-state liberal argue with that explanation of how the tax system works? This is an excellent description that all of the bible hugging/gun loving conservatives (like myself) can understand :)

Honestly, this is a great high level outline of how it all comes together. I'm not rich but I'm not poor either. In the ladder of ten men at the bar I'm probably the sixth or seventh man meaning that I make just enough that uncle sam feels its too much. I don't have a problem with the 10th man getting such a tax cut. These are the people who provide the jobs and pay the taxes that makes the majority of what we all have in this country possible.

As for the bottom five, I used to be there and I was for many years. I was grateful for the help I received and instead of resting in the arms of government, I made the most of every opportunity I could find. Now I feel like I'm being punished for my efforts. So much so that we are contemplating my wife moving from full-time to part-time simply because of our tax burden. This is what punitive taxes policies do to hardworking Americans. Why are we being punished for doing the best we can for ourselves? Why should I be apologetic for my hard earned success?

There's plenty of people who make alot more then I do. I don't hate them. I don't wish ill will upon them. Whether I like them or not, I respect the fact that they've put in the effort and sacrifice to achieve.

If you're in the bottom five, don't play into the class-warfare angle. I don't see any of them complaining when they get a 4k-5k "tax refund" at the end of the year. You can thank the "evil rich people" for that fat refund.

Here's a partial list of some of the "evil" socialist programs in the United States, many of which have existed since or before the Great Depression:

Civil Service Retirement Systems
Federal Employee Retirement Systems
Railroad Retirement System
Public Housing
Rental Vouchers & Certificates
Section 8 Housing Vouchers
Shelter Plus Care
Single Room Occupancy
Low Income Home Energy Assistance
Social Security (OASDI)
Unemployment Insurance
Temporary Disability Insurance
Medicare
Medicaid
Medicare Prescription Drug Plan
Supplemental Security Income
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families
Food Stamp Program
Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC)
National School Lunch Program
School Breakfast Program
United States Department of Agriculture (USDA)
Federal Communications Commission (FCC)
Food and Drug Administration (FDA)

I'm not saying these things are perfect. I'm not saying that many of them don't need an overhaul. What I'm saying is that life here would be a lot harder for a lot of people if these programs didn't exist. People get so worked up by the word socialism that they don't look any deeper before they assume it's bad, and we need to.

My mom was a single mom (My dad took off when I was 9.) who worked two jobs to try to keep our heads above financial water and sometimes couldn't. If it hadn't been for Medicaid she wouldn't have been able to take me or my brother or sister to the doctor. If it wasn't for food stamps and for reduced-cost breakfast and lunch at school, we would have gone hungry. If it wasn't for Low Income Home Energy Assistance, we would have frozen in the winter.

My husband lost his job and if it hadn't been for Unemployment Insurance, I don't know what we would have done while he was looking for a new job. I don't make enough to support our family alone.

Without WIC my sister's baby might not get the nutrition she needs to be healthy.

These programs aren't perfect, but the United States needs them. We need them. They might not work perfectly and I know there are people who take advantage of them, but these programs, programs that help the neediest among us, are one of the things that makes America the great country that it is today, and they are absolutely necessary, "socialist" or not.

When circumstances and conditions justify assistance, no one is going to object. But.....after the "great depression", those on "welfare" amounted to about 7% of our population.

Once the Democrats managed to get a bunch of these "programs" into place, that number went to 18% and I'll bet it's higher today. Having over 50% of the "taxpayers"....NOT paying tax is a horrible number.

Lets not justify these programs on the basis of that 7% that need and deserve the help. Lets have all people of good intention join together to do whats needed to delete the additional 11% or so who have no justification for utilizing these programs.

And, for certain, lets not expand them further. Lets face reality. Saying "this country needs them" is misleading. 7% need them.......and 11% are abusing them. Lets clean up our mess

The disgusting part of this is that allowing crazy liberals to expand these programs will eventually break the whole system down........and those who are truly deserving will be the ones hurt the most. Folks with good intentions will fight the expansion of these programs.

I'd like to begin with saying that my initial point that people have started labeling things "socialist" to make them scary stands. I didn't say anything about expanding any of them, I said that they are needed. I'd also like to point out that you'd be extremely hard-pressed to find many Americans that do not benefit from a single one of these programs.

Ibc, you said, "Once the Democrats managed to get a bunch of these 'programs' into place, that number went to 18% and I'll bet it's higher today."

According to the U.S. census the U.S. population in 1915 was 100,546,000. Now it's around 300 million. I'd say it stands to reason that more people are going to be in need of assistance programs, especially during these troubling economic times. I'm not sure where you got the percentages, and I don't know for certain whether or not they're accurate, but it's around 10% of people who recieve food stamps, not 18.

You said, "Having over 50% of the "taxpayers"....NOT paying tax is a horrible number." Could you please tell me which taxpayers aren't paying taxes? Unless you have some significant evidence that half of us really aren't paying taxes, I'm going to have to write that off as complete nonsense. And if it's not...where do I sign up? :D

You said, "Lets not justify these programs on the basis of that 7% that need and deserve the help." The fact that seven percent (probably a conservative estimate) of American citizens need these programs justify these programs. They were designed to help the people that need it and as you said, seven percent need it.

We do need to root out and get rid of the people who are abusing these programs, but that's going to take more money before it works in trimming down the system.

You said, "The disgusting part of this is that allowing crazy liberals to expand these programs will eventually break the whole system down." First, again with the name calling? I don't understand why you can't participate in a conversation without trying to tear people down because you don't agree with them. Secondly, I'm not sure how expanding these programs is going to break anything down. That was really vague and not based on evidence as far as I can tell.

Besides, It seems to me that with the economy in such a mess, more of our fellow citizens are going to need help. This may not call for expanding these programs, but cutting them seems counterintuitive.

come on Rmap...your name calling and put downs suggest anything but a professional.

If you want to know how I help, you can find me at soup kitchen in KCK or the Ronal McDonald house.
I feel like actually giving time to the
orgs and people who need it is better than just giving my
money.

You guys are hillarious. lots of luck you might want to wear a life jacket while swimming in your own self-fulfilling crap. you have my pity.

Teacherlady.......do your homework...the IRS...the joint congressional economoic committee...there isn't any disagreement re: the 50%. It's routinely cited on all TV...even CNBC and they are as far left as you can get. There is no debate about that number....your the first person to question it.

I am not objecting to the programs......I am objecting to those who are taking advantage of them. I think it's fine to provide for the 7% (or whatever the current number is)
but there is a huge number who are able bodied and lazy as sin....not working and not willing to. It's those that I would curtail benefits.

Please read the cute story I recorded (4-19/this blog) about the 10 "guys" who met for a beer. It is a clever way to see exactly how the system breaks down.

If you don't choose to do it in a simplistic manner, like that, I commend to your consideration the conclusions of Ludwig von Mises (the Great economist) who observed "People who want to improve the country through high taxes are taking a page out of the Marxist playbook. It's not so much they want to save the couintry as to rule the country. High taxes are just another milepost on the road to ruin."

By the way, I didn't use the word "socialist" to be scary. I used it because it is 100% accurate. If I wanted to be scary, I would use communist and as Obama has exerted increasing influence over car mfg...banks...etc., personally I'd say it's getting closer and I am getting nervous.

The evidence is in the text books written by von Mises, and his successors. Even John Paul Galbreath conceded, just prior to his death, that "High taxes and government spending will lead to financial chaos" Mr. Galbreath was the only "holdout" of the top ten economists of the 20th Century.....when he conceded, it was unanimous.

In case you have not followed the dollar for the past 10 years it is clear that we are on a direct course for monetary devaluation. The numbers are irrefutable and beyond question and the most compelling evidence possible.

If you were in Europe a few years ago and this year you would be able to share tons of antedotal evidence...there is serious deteriorition. there is nothing "vague" about exchanging dollars for the British pound. How much evidence do you need.

Sorry I used the word "crazy".......perhaps you have a better adjective for folks who are methodically destroying our economic system for political gain and impervious to the cliff ahead.

I have a word for those that methodically destroyed the economy "republican" but for those on the right truth is inconvenient just like saying bush kept us safe after 9/11 like the clock started there. That spin highlights the rights deceitful tactics, and should be obvious even to those that follow their lead.

rmap....
Is there some question about Barney Frank/Chris Dodd being the legislative leaders to modify the banking practices of FNMA/FRMC........No there is not.

Tell all those who have lost their home that the mortgage mess created by those two Democrats is not at the core of the current economic mess.

Is there any question that both Frank/Dodd admitted accepting substantial sums of money from those firms....No there is not.

The truth is not deceitful.

In addition to the huge campaign contributions Dodd received, he also got a sweetheart RE loan package from Countrywide estimated to save the Senator $75,000 over the life of the loan(s).

Sorry, but this is a direct post to/about MichaelH. I get on here a lot just to read the debates on the hot topics of the moment. While it is sometimes refreshing to read what others have to say (whether or not I agree) I have to say I am so tired of listening to MichaelH's sarcastic, brow-beating, name calling, granny-git-yer-guns responses to practically every article that deals with government (taxes, laws, programs, etc) or collective social issues. To each his own and yes I know, we ALL have freedom of speech. But the picture I have in my mind of this guy is a cranky, crabby, cynical, liberal hater (Democrats, Liberals, Independents, homosexuals, eco-friendly "tree huggers", et al.) who one of these days is going to snap and try to start another American Revolution in the streets of St. Joe. Good grief, by all means have your opinions just as I do, but for God's sake, will you stop "preaching" hatred torwards anyone who doesn't think like you? I always find it so ironic when someone stands on a stump and screams "don't take away our liberties and God bless America" at the same time, all the while criticizing at every turn our president and other elected officials as well as his fellow countrymen. What is that supposed to accomplish? Aren't we supposed to stand behind our country and show our pride? We're not going to agree with everything our government does or our fellow citizens do, but if it bothers you that bad, that you can't seem to find the good in anyone, move to a "better" country. I don't know who this person is, but I'm willing to bet he screams at the neighborhood kids to get off his driveway and complains when his neighbor's BBQ party gets too loud. Get a grip, will you? Sorry if this seems so blatently harsh but I get called idiot, retarded, senseless, stupid, un-American, etc. everytime he spouts something off about things I believe in or views I have (including supporting the current "elected idiot"). Guess I just wanted to put my 2 cents in too. Thank you to the News Press for allowing us to have these debates...it's too bad that some use it as forum to bash people they disagree with.

Thank you for that, JLK. You're not alone in feeling this way, and it's not just MichaelH. I'm a college student and started reading these threads because I'm interested in issues and thought this would be a good open forum. I've read things on here that have absolutely disgusted me.

The real irony is that the people that are being hateful are the ones that are preaching conservative Christian values and the people that are acting respectful and objecting to this kind of behavior tend to be more liberal. Honestly I would have thought it woudl be the other way around.

I wish many of the people on here would just grow up. And I'm 22 years old.

Oh this is rich! Honor thy father and thy mother??? You honor your father and your mother by taking care of them, NOT by letting government bureaucrats do the job. Assuming that bureaucracy can take care of a person better than individuals and private interest is a ridiculous proposition. We see it time and time and time and time again. Those who have no alternative should be cared for by the state. To do more or less than this is socialism - you can twist it anyway you want, it is still bureaucratic socialism.

JLK......why don't you tell Obama to stand behind his country and show pride. He went to Europe and instead of visiting the graves of US Servicemen and honoring the FACT that they saved Europe from facism, they died and perserved their freedom. He could have laid a flower. But, no, he
created another sideshow and recited every alledged mistake the US has evermade with a not so subtle slap at Geo Bush.

Whose being hateful.......Barack

By the way, he got another soiled politician (Sebeleus) approved today to serve in his cabinet. What is that 15 or 20 taxcheats/under investigation...Class act....makes me so proud.

Good comment JLK, michael h. has problems. he has been lied to for so long he is obviously confused. it is unfortunate that small minds are so easily manipulated. But that is the republican way, get the simpletons to do your dirty work.

There will be a revolution, Michael, but it won't be nearly as distressful as you predict; actually quite painless I believe.

Orilander? A revolution? ha your 26% against the rest of us. of course cant expect the right to be good at math look what they did to the economy. the average age of the fox listener 65. the rest are not smart enough to formulate a strategy. " let me know if i am going to fast for you here, it must be a terrible strain to comprehend and think for a moment. maybe you can ask fix news what your position is.

Sorry about that oliandor, i meant michael

I don't have a problem with a fair amount of the programs out there today. It would be hypocritical of me to do so as I partook in a few of them in my youth. I received food stamps twice in my life after a job loss and I also took advantage of PEL grants to help me attend MWSU. Thats the difference though, I did something with the assistance I received and didn't make it a lifestyle choice.

My problem is with the people who willingly drop out of school, work one entry level job after another, spend their time drunk/high, and never do anything to improve their station in life. These people then fall prey to the "class warfare" argument and feel its okay to soak the rich. If your poor, its not my fault. Do something about it. The opportunities are there if you're willing to put in the effort. You may get "assistance" for things but you'll never elevate yourself without plenty of effort.

Bottomline, I have no problem with these programs to assist the helpless and those who have fallen on hard times...not the lazy as sin clueless who "chose" to do nothing with their lives.