Originally published August 12, 2009 at 4:56 p.m., updated August 12, 2009 at 4:56 p.m.
The St. Joseph School District will offer additional transfer choices for some parents due to punitive sanctions under the federal No Child Left Behind Act.
The district announced Wednesday that Edison and Noyes elementary schools did not score high enough on federally mandated tests for two consecutive years. That means parents of children attending these schools have an option of sending their children to Coleman, Field, Hyde or Pershing elementary schools.
Those four schools were offered because they were the only elementary schools that have made Adequate Yearly Progress for the last two years. Under No Child Left Behind, schools must hit an annual target, which increases 7 to 9 percent every year, on mandated tests.
Statewide, nearly three-fourths of Missouri high school students scored proficient or better on a new standardized exam for English, but barely half met that mark on algebra and biology, the Associated Press reported.
Test results released Wednesday by the state education department also showed improvement among elementary and middle school students. Yet roughly two-thirds of Missouri's public schools failed to meet the ever-toughening progress standards established under federal law.
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BCotter says...
Coleman, Field, Hyde, and Pershing might be getting more crowded. If only there were another school or two for the children to transfer to...
August 12, 2009 at 6:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
pointing out that both webster and neely met AYP in their final year.
i forget, was noyes title one before the closings?
August 12, 2009 at 6:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
The district really messed this one up by closing Neely and Webster schools now all of the parents of children from Webster that were moved to Edison will probably be asking for a transfer to one of these other schools and If I were the principle of Colemen and Persing I would be bracing myself for a flood of children.Now it seems as if they should have kept at least Webster open for sure.Now you have the children from Noyes as well and surely there will be parents there asking for transfers as well to these schools close to them. Hyde will probably not get a lot of transfer being that it is one the other side of town.This is just a real possiblity now and this is my opinion.
August 12, 2009 at 6:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
A friend who is a teacher at Edison informed me about their status last week with some additional detail. It seems there are 8 sections to the test and the school passed on 7 of the 8. On the section it failed if you take the percentages and apply it to the number of students taking the test the result is that 2 students too many failed that section. So the entire school fails to meet AYP because 2 student too many failed one of eight sections of the test. Makes me wonder what we are trying to measure. Also, Edison does not teach to the test. I am informed that Webster had a program of teaching to the test.
So let's look this in another light. Assume there are 300 students at each Noyes and Edison and all transfer. Now that we shut down Webster and Neely, is there sufficient room at Coleman, Field, Pershing and Hyde to accommodate those children? Do they get to bump children who are at those schools because they are in their areas?
August 12, 2009 at 6:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
babytger says...
My children attended Webster and you are right 238er, Webster did teach the test. So much so that it was all it was teaching weeks leading up to the test. My children will now attend Edison, I do not plan on applying for a transfer. I am sure the the teachers at Edison are very capable of teaching my children without cheating and teaching a mandated government test. I don't know how Webster and I'm sure other schools are allowed to get away with teaching the test. Maybe the government needs to be told what is going on with the Saint Joseph School district. What do you all think?
August 12, 2009 at 7:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
saturnlady says...
238er, who informed you that Webster had a program of teaching to the test? If you are making accusations, please inform your sources. My kids went to Webster, they were doing extremely well, you bet, but nobody taught them only for testing. You are insulting Webster students and teachers. We do not make accusations or assumptions about students doing well in Field, Coleman. As the matter of the fact, I am not happy with Webster's MAP scores this year, but I guess the levy and closing things messed up them.
How is Edison doing? The numbers speak for themselves. But I do want to comment that Edison does make huge progress this year, which is the bright side. I do hope Edison is continuing to improve and to be successful in the future.
Guess what? My kids can go to your school now, but do I want my kids to stay with your kids? NO. I want my kids to stay at their assigned school and help their new school to improve their scores. You should be happy, one less uneducated low income midtown family to mess up with your school. But be prepered, every Edison and Noyes students could show up in your school.
August 12, 2009 at 7:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
My friend shall remain nameless as I do not have permission to release this teacher's name. I know this person works extremely hard to educate their students at Edison. Babytger, should my friend be teaching one of your kids, I am sure you will be pleased. It continually amazes to hear stories about parents unwilling to even walk their child to school, to make sure they are feed at a reasonable hour at night, to get to bed at a reasonable hour, etc. It also amazes me to hear stories about the kids who are routinely subjected to horrible home conditions only to rise above it and succeed and become responsible citizens. Students can and do succeed at Edison. Some that fail only fail do the the deep hole they start in due to their parents.
Of course, Edison is doing better now that Doug Flowers is out of there!
August 12, 2009 at 7:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Brennen says...
I would just like to comment that my child already has a very crowded grade of about 28 students per class. If 12 children would like to come to our school, in his grade, that would make 32 kids in each room. We didn't even have enough books to start out last year. How will this help children learn? NCLB is messed up.
Teachers are losing their career ladder pay and their salaries are frozen, yet they are supposed to do a better job? They will have to work extra hours and have extra pressure put on them for what?
My solution is this. Let's swap all the kids from one of the failing schools to one of the passing schools, and vice versa, leave the teachers in place and let's see what happens. What do YOU think would happen?
August 12, 2009 at 7:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
The kids will perform the same no matter which building they are attending.
August 12, 2009 at 8:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
238er
Really that is why some schools met and other did not.At least parent can make a decision to transfer now and not be told no.
August 12, 2009 at 8:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yougottabekiddingme says...
So is it possible that if enough free/reduced lunch students transfer to these passing, non-title I schools - they will eventually become a title 1 school too? What happens in a couple of years if they fail to meet the standards too? Then all of those kids get to go where?? There would be no where to go then. What happens then? Does it end up being a free for all with everyone going to whatever elementary schools they want to? Wait..... we already did that once.
August 12, 2009 at 8:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
music4602 says...
pull yer head out of the sand MM.
You're going to try to say that children who come to school after going to sleep at whatever time they fell asleep, woke up and had no bath or breakfast, their parent(s) was too busy with either their second or third shift minimum wage employ, or their new boyfriend to, sit with their kid and read a book together, or have a decent dinner. Yeah those kids come to school with the same ability to be ready to learn as others. Face it, Some children are at a disadvantage to other children yet all are to be taught to the same level when they do not come to school at the same level.
Let's stop educating the children that pass the MAP for awhile so we can focus instead only on the disadvantaged and under-performing to get ALL the children to the same level. (he said sarcastically).
Really, sometimes I wonder if thats not what NCLB wants.
Yes, the district is REALLY in a conundrum now. They will have the added expense of bussing the transfers to the school of their choice, also 10% or the Title money designated to the failed schools must be spent on professional development of the staff which means less time of the teacher instructing his or her class, and overcrowding at the transfer-in schools. Theoretically, Noyes and Edison could have every student in their area transfer out. I realize that will not happen but what if there are only 1 or 2 hundred students in those schools? Then the district will have to re-assign some of the teachers in those buildings to the overcrowed schools...and the cycle continues.
August 12, 2009 at 8:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ksmith says...
babytger
Its not just one school that teaches the test for weeks before the test. All the schools do this to prepare the students for it. I find it a joke that they do this. If they were properly teaching the students then they would not have to make such a big deal out of this test and the students would know the stuff already.
August 12, 2009 at 8:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldman65 says...
If they are not closing webster they should put the kids back in there.Who would want to send there kids clear down to Hyde? They are already sending Parkway kids down to Hyde.They need to change the school board people around.
August 12, 2009 at 8:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhoisJohnGalt says...
Here is the deal. NCLB is designed to fail schools. Pure and simple. They fold, bend and mutilate the data such that a school can pass in 99 ways, fail in one category, and be classified as a failure. NCLB is a designed, purposeful failure. I suspect the ultimate goal is to wrest control from communities and Federalize the education system.
August 12, 2009 at 8:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Orliandor says...
Good point about the police, apple. Take the analogy one step further. NO crime by 2014!
August 12, 2009 at 9:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lizzie says...
From what I have read NCLB states that transfers from failing schools will be allowed "if possible." Coleman and Field are almost at capacity as it is. I don't see how they will be able to take in many more students.
How is the district going to decide which students will be granted transfers?
August 12, 2009 at 9:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greenman says...
You don't fund it. It won't happen. You can't have a bunch of undereducated (if you don't count the juco out on 29) rednecks who gripe about everything voting on issues that effect the future. Their future is learning to get used to the new flavor of cigarettes that will help them to not burn their trailers down.
hehehehehehehe - reap what you sow and all that.
America, love it or leave it!
August 12, 2009 at 9:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
grannyb says...
This is only my opinion but i think if we started by getting rid of melody (superintendent) whose only concern is if we have fancy schools for our children and spending money that the economy does not have to spend right now instead of teaching our children while utilizing what we have we would find that we would be a lot better off. The whole zoning issue was not even thought out it was just to punish people for not voting yes. If it were thought out redistricting would not have overcrowded some schools while others had less amount of students. We are in a mess now and the public needs to consider what we can do to get people in there who know how to do the job. and make our kids #1
August 12, 2009 at 9:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
lizzie,
They have to allow all of the children transfers in these schools to the schools they listed if the parents want to transfer their children.
oldman65,
You hit it right on the head they should put the Webster children back in Webster and this would be less transfers also you are right about Hyde they will not get to many transfers and the got the majority of the Parkway students.And yes I agree with you about the they need to change the school board people around.
August 12, 2009 at 9:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lizzie says...
mm1967-
How is it possible to allow all transfers to these schools if their is not physical space? You can only put so many children in one building. How can a building accomodate another 100+ children when they are already at capacity? Are you saying they will have to put trailers on the premises? If so, I still can't imagine that it would be possible. Or are you trying to tell me that the children who live within the school's boundaries will be forced out? Because I read that priority will be given to low scoring students as well as low income students.
August 12, 2009 at 9:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
greenman,
If I remember were from a far(if I am wrong please correct me).So whats going on here in St Joseph Mo concern you so much?
August 12, 2009 at 9:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
lizzie,
No I am not telling you that the children in their own district would not be pushed out what I am telling you they (the district) must allow transfers now to these children of these schools(Noyes and Edison).Is it going to cause over crowding sure it is if a bunch of student transfer.Webster students that got sent to Edison will be alot of the transfers so maybe they should have left this school open.This is the law it is in the No Child Left Behind Act which is federal.If there is this many transfers than the district is going to have to deal with that issue on what to do with all of the children wanting to transfers.
August 12, 2009 at 10:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lizzie says...
From what I understand if the school of 1st choice is at capacity, then the student must go to the their next school of choice if their is space. Only after all schools are at capacity will the district have to then "make space." There will be 4 schools to split the transfers amongst.
August 12, 2009 at 10:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
momwhocares says...
I have 2 children that I have already signed up to transfer. I am stuck in the whole Edison thing and I do not like it. I had sent my children to a private school until the economy fell through and I want the best for my children. You cannot classify all the people in this area as low lifes that do not care about their children. I love my house I just hate that I am stuck with a below average school.
August 12, 2009 at 10:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
momwhocares,
I am personally glad to see you post that you live in this area of town and are telling people you care about your children there are those people out there that think nobody that lives in this area cares and they are just wrong and I am glad to see that you are going to be able to transfer for you can get the best for your children.
August 12, 2009 at 10:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
bearnie04,
If there are all of these ways to get help with money to send children to private school then tell the people how they get this financial help.
August 12, 2009 at 10:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Orliandor says...
mom, please remember it is not the school that is "below average. It is the students.
August 12, 2009 at 10:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Brennen says...
mm1967
This is how I feel. Can my child have your spot at Edison? My child will do well no matter what school he's at and the teachers there are just as good as the other schools. I think the small class sizes at Edison now will be awesome once you all leave, and you can be at my overcrowded and overworked school.
August 12, 2009 at 10:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Brennen,
For starters My children live clear on the other end of town on the southeast end and are no where near this school but I think that it is not only the law that these children get to transfer to a school that has met the standard but it is their right to transfer for a better education. If you live in the other side of town from me in the northeast and you are afraid these children are coming to your school guess what they are.
August 12, 2009 at 10:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Brennen says...
bearnie04,
What makes you think parochial schools are better? Why do you think parochial schools always end up sending their problem students back to the public school? Why were the parochial kids that came to our school this year so far behind others in their grade? Why would you be a teacher at a parochial school? Because you like getting paid 20,000.00 a year?
August 12, 2009 at 10:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Orliandor,
So you are saying that the children in this area of town are the problem not the school and they are below average?Please expalin to us what you mean by this statement the children are below average. I do not think the children are the problem they may have issues at home and things like that but they are children and deserve the same education as other children get.
August 12, 2009 at 10:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Brennen says...
mm1967
It is a federal mandate that they may transfer, even if it's overcrowded. But for the life of me, why do you think it's better? That's what I'm trying to tell you, I would let my child go to whatever school your kid has been transfered to, and I guarantee you, he would still get good grades. What do you think the problem is with these schools that you don't want your child to attend? Do you have any suggestions that could make it better? I am not afraid of your child sitting next to mine in class. I am afraid they won't have any room for desks for OUR children!!!
August 12, 2009 at 10:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Brennen,
Let me clarifiy the southeast side of town Skaith and Pickett schools do you understand this is no where near Edison.
August 12, 2009 at 10:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Brennen,
There are children in this school that are surely getting held back because of all of this and just maybe they need to go to a school like yours or mine I would not be afraid of having any of these children as well. If it overcrowds then the district should have kept Webster open because these are the children that are going to be asking for the transfers think about it.
August 12, 2009 at 11:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Brennen says...
mm1967,
That's why I said WHATEVER school your child has been transferred to. You've lost me. What is it you exactly want? So you this whole forum does not concern you or your children? Do you not have anything else to do? What suggestions are you offering?
August 12, 2009 at 11:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Orliandor says...
Not referring to the part of town, mm. Just saying it was the students who were tested and failed, not the school.
August 12, 2009 at 11:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Brennen says...
mm,
Webster is closed, end of story. It's housing Rainbows, a preschool, and Ruth Huston kids. Get over it.
August 12, 2009 at 11:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
momwhocares says...
My child did go to a parochial school and had straight a's. He is not a problem child. I just want what is best for both of them. He has a sister that is starting in Kindergarden.
August 12, 2009 at 11:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Heres a suggestion to your problem have the district open Webster back up as I said these children will account for the most transfers to your school.
August 12, 2009 at 11:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
No Brennen You will now need to get over it the children will be transfering to your school deal with it.
August 12, 2009 at 11:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reggie says...
this just proves NCLB is a joke! mm you claim it wouldn't bother you to have these children in your school, but you've stated before you would NOT take your child to said "new" school (one you are being redistricted) too. Why? If you are in the SE part of town Pickett/Skaith those are a couple of great schools. Fact of the matter there are no BAD schools in the SJSD. Unfortunately these teachers/administrators at the schools are only as good as what they are given to work with. And don't twist my words to sound like I am belittling these children, I AM NOT. They deserve the best education, as do all children, but it can not be left to teachers. Like it or not, parents do have a role to play here. And like apple stated before you can't continue to put ridiculous expections on teachers, have them "fail" and then expect them to do more with even less.
August 12, 2009 at 11:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Brennen says...
mm1967,
I think they should keep Webster open. Where have I heard that before? Oh, a broken record.
August 12, 2009 at 11:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reggie says...
well said brennan, mm1967 is a broken record
August 12, 2009 at 11:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Brennen says...
Reggie,
I agree with you! But I think we are wasting our time tonight.
August 12, 2009 at 11:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reggie says...
seems that way now doesn't it? Lots of moaning with no real positive solutions other than beating a dead horse
August 12, 2009 at 11:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Reggie,
You are correct there are children in this are of town that have issues at home and I feel sorry for them but they also deserve the best.If these teacher know there is a issue at the childs home are they not suppost to report it to the proper athorities and get these children help?There are also children getting held back because of the failing grade I would think and we know the children from Webster are going to be the mojority of the transfers are they not?
August 12, 2009 at 11:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reggie says...
seems to be a battle of the "thumbs" tonight, what no one has any more to share?
August 12, 2009 at 11:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Yea just beatting a dead horse because at this point it would look real good if Webster was a school still and this transfer problem now would not be such a big issue.Would it.
August 12, 2009 at 11:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reggie says...
mm1967 you are right about the children, but what "perfect world" have you been living in? I have several friends who are teachers in this district, elementary to h.s., and you don't think they do report these things, are you SERIOUS??? Yes they do and it breaks their hearts knowing they have to send these kids home to meth labs in their homes and parents getting arrested over the weekend and the like but you then want them to get less pay and now bring up test scores all while policing the parents, are you for real? As I stated before they do the best they can with what they are given to work with, and then the law just mandates, more, more, more! If what 238r stated is true at Edison, how can a test have 8 sections and only "fail" 1 and be considered "failing", simple percentages tells me that is not accurate.
August 12, 2009 at 11:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ksmith says...
The way I see it, the district knew the rules. They knew the schools scores and they still closed webster which makes no sense. It is obviously still a usable building but, they did this to cause the overcrowding at the other schools. They are punishing the children for something they had no control over. Now the children in certain schools will be more overcrowded than they need to be. All because they decided to close webster. They should have chosen one of the failing schools. That would have made more sense. Also, why wait until a week before school to announce this. What a mess they are causing for the children and the school employees. I am so tired of them crying for money for the children when the children are the farthest thing from there minds.
August 12, 2009 at 11:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reggie says...
ksmith test results are typically not released until sometime in August and considering school is starting earlier this year, I don't think that is something they could have predicted. I agree that the children are the ones to suffer and some will now be overcrowded and albeit punished for doing well with teachers dealing with the overcrowding, but what most people fail to see is this is not just a Webster/Edison issue. If Webster were still open then Noyes more than likely would have closed and you would still have a problem with transfers for failing and overcrowding.
August 12, 2009 at 11:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ksmith says...
reggie,
They knew the results from last year so they had an idea of the schools in danger. They have to fail 2 years in a row. So, they did know. They should have closed one of the failing ones not one that was passing.
August 12, 2009 at 11:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Reggie,
Thing like you have stated are just wrong to do to a child and it as well would break my heart to see. These children are our future and someone has to step in and help them. I have never said the teacher need less pay in any of my post I have stated I support the teachers and the local schools admin just not downtown.What I am telling you these are not the children that will be transfering it will be the children who are being sent to Edison from Webster they are the children and their parents are going to request these transfer maybe just for the reasons you have stated above and the fact the school for whatever reason has failed.Is it going to cause overcrowding you bet it is and then that is where it comes to light about Webster as a school that is what I am telling you all. This whole thing is a mess and it has gone from bad to worse in 24 hrs but this is the way it is sound familiar to me that is what the district always said since the april election.
August 12, 2009 at 11:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
johncourter says...
NCLB is a federal mandate. Regardless of how effective or in effective anyone believes it is, it is a federal mandate that was not adhered to for various reasons. Every district in the country is well aware of this. There has been over the years quite a bit of controversy about the program itself, but to date, it never has been seriously challenged. By not being seriously challenged, that means in my view the districts accepted it as written as well as the general public who were aware of this. The general public who has not been aware of this mandate and its reprocussions simply has not paid attention to it for thier own reasons. These schools as well as many others in the state and I am sure throughout the country failed to meet the mandate, that is the bottom line with this. We can debate about the reasons why whether it is the responsibility of the district, parents, the quality of life for children, etc, all we want to, but the requirements were not achieved. The government has mandated a solution for that, good or bad, but it is the mandate. If we do not like the mandate, then it needs to be challenged. The whole thing validates in my opinion everything Cathy has had to say about this entire issue.
August 13, 2009 at 12:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_O says...
Jumping the gun on all of the cuts has opened up one HELL of a can of worms !!
August 13, 2009 at 12:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kec1938 says...
Well, I know I am a bit late into this blog. However, I have been following the school mess in St. Joseph for some time now. First the teachers cannot do it alone. The parents must step up and perform their parental duty and help teach their children. The teachers are not a group of baby sitters. Oh I understand all about the second and third jobs. Folks I lived in St. Joseph for a number of years and all three of my children attended school there. I also understand how the media has a tendency to hipe a situation time to time. After all it does sell papers as evidenced by the time that two Police Officers answered a call to a bar on messanie st. For days we nearly had a race riot. Funny thing happened--pure coinsidence I am sure-- the press slacked off on the coverage and the situation righted itself The thing that has always puzzled me though is why there can't be more harmony in St. Joseph. Hasn't anyone ever thought about working TOGETHER for the betterment of the children and community? Why does there seem to be so much Hatfields and McCoys mentality? I will be 71 oops I am now 71 and I can assure you what you folks are doing is in essence tearing at the very social fabric of your fine city. Your children are reading and hearing all about your petty scraps and that will carry over into their future. Until you, the adult population start acting as adults nothing and I mean nothing will be resolved. As said I lived in that fine city for a number of years and still have relatives there and some very fine friends that were members of the St. Joseph facalty and one was my coach at an outlying area schools. The reason that your best and brightest leave the area and do not come back after college is?????
I know, however do you as a city have the intestinal fortitude to face up to it? Look around you the answers are everywhere. Yes I do still love my general home area of St. Joseph, Mo. Ok, now let us get up off our duffs and getter it done. God Bless you all.
August 13, 2009 at 1:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
As to the test scores, I just reported the information the teacher gave me. It is not entirely a question of percentages. A set percentage must pass all sections. If one section is failed by one child and that puts the school below the bar then the entire school fails. Look at the other article on this this morning. Soon every single child in the district will have to pass every single section. So if one child fails one section then the district fails. Is this a reasonable law?
I was talking with a friend last night and part of the problem is that the testing doesn't truly measure whether the students learn or not. Lets take the 40 yard dash, the NCLB would require all students run past it in 5 seconds by the end of third grade. Problem is that it doesn't see where the student started. Some students started at the goal line, some at the back of the end zone and some at the 30 yard line. The measure is solely can they cross the line in 5 seconds. Some have to run 40 yards, some 10 and some 50, yet all get the same 5 seconds to run a different distance. The student is measured against some made up norm rather than themselves to see whether they actually made progress during the school year.
It is no different than some old house. Let's take Heritage's. I assume that at some point it needed a ton of work. So she and her husband have been working like mad on it. So we test her. After one year with the same amount of money we compare her house to a new house in 12 Oaks and then penalize the city because her sidewalk is not as nice. Make sense?
August 13, 2009 at 6:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
stjoenative says...
a child who's worst problem in the morning is that they can't find their blackberry or there's a flat on the family BMW vs. a child who's house was raided at 1:00 in the morning by police arresting the dad, stepdad, boyfriend etc for selling crack... who do YOU think is going to perform better in school?
August 13, 2009 at 6:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ApparentlySo says...
But if all of these kids transfer schools, won't the kids suffer? And wouldn't the schools that they transfer to would suffer? Because, it has been pointed out numerous times how tragic and difficult it is on children transferring, how they are unable to perform. They would be in at least the same shape if they transferred as if they just stayed put, wouldn't they?
August 13, 2009 at 7:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_O says...
It sounds like overcrowding will be a bigger problem NOW than it EVER was before. And some schools will look like a Ghost town.
I admit that I don't understand everything about the required testing for the children, or title schools, but one thing I DO understand is, When you Kicked GOD out of our school system, you allowed a perfect place for Satan to reside and it is evident that he has taken FULL advantage of that vacancy ! He KNOWS that there is NO better place to influence our Nations Future leaders than the first 15-20 years of their lives. Ponder It !
August 13, 2009 at 7:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
The thing that bothers me about all these comments, is that Congress passed NCLB. This is the same Congress that usually has approval ratings anywhere from l8 - 28%. For those of you who hate big government, this is an example of why government shouldn't get involved in local affairs. I even doubt the wisdom of Jefferson City getting involved in St. Joseph affairs. They don't know the people and they don't know the attitudes. Having said that, what I find the school district most guilty of, is not keeping steady communications open with the public. I personally doubt that anyone in the main office is extroverted enough to be able to talk to the public, meaningfully. It seems to me we have had an ivory tower Congress, basically dictating to an ivory tower school district. I would really like to know) and some of you who work in the school district can tell me)...how much input is there between the employee and the employer, where the employer receives the input?
August 13, 2009 at 3:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justsayin says...
Anybody else wonder what mm's kids are doing while he posts non-stop on here for hours on end?
August 13, 2009 at 10:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
justsayin,
If it is any of your damn business my children are sleeping right now and lets see it is 10:49pm at night do you think I just let my children run you are crazier than hell. When I post on here during the day they (MY CHILDREN)are at home with their mother enjoying summer if this as well is any of you damn business.Hey you must be related to Apple. So I hope you know know where my children are at this point in time as if it is any of you damn business anyway.
August 13, 2009 at 10:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple,
Yes I am just getting under a select fews peoples skin as I have stated to you on several occassions you seem to get you fair share of critisism as well and you continue to post the same thing as well you support for you friends downtown and it is boring as well but I do not tell you to quit posting post till you heart is content and I will continue to post.Freedom of speech people.
August 13, 2009 at 11:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bthing_2005 says...
What about Neely? No one is talking about that school. I want to know why my child has been sent to Hosea when there is closer schools. Hosea is a small school and sending kids to it is going to over croud that school. Do I have the right to transfer him?
August 13, 2009 at 11:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Justsayin,
Hey it is 4:49am I am leaving for work just thought you would like to know I am posting and my children are still in bed where they belong if it is any of your business I did not want you to think my children were running the streets at 4:49 am.
August 14, 2009 at 4:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
dilligent, there are two ways to examine NCLB. one is from a philosophical perspective. i think everyone can agree that the intention to have every student in every region of this country learning at a consistent grade level and with the same expectations is a laudable goal.
the second perspective is purely political. NCLB is a political football, and that always amazes me since, while the initiative was passed in the bush administration, the notion has been out there through both republican and democrat administrations. the fact is that the teacher's unions abhor this test, and they want to get rid of it. so much so that missouri's former secretary of education, supt. beck. has admitted and actually bragged that her administration falsified and flagrantly disobeyed federal law in protest to NCLB. It is this attitude and the 2007 discovery of this transgression which now has missouri so far behind the eight ball. the law has a progressively higher gradation on a curve , one which assumes more adept students across a spectrum. since beck in her infinite "wisdom" allowed and encouraged cheating on reporting from districts across the state, the districts now have to play catch up on a much steeper academic slope. the federal government was asked to let missouri, along with florida ( who also tried to cheat) go back and start from the beginning. apparently there are No Do-overs.
i am unable to discover whether the numbers were jury-rigged at a district level, or from a state level. i do not know which districts were involved in this.
there is currently a discussion of taking some consideration on ESL ( stjo is the fastest growing city in the US for that category) and LD students and their scores. while Candidate obama did indicate that he would lean toward some re-tooling of the NCLB, Pres. obama has not done so to date. in fact, his administration is planing to further complicate the educational environment by introducing merit pay, a completely insane notion, imo.
again, if this president had chosen a single area of american life to Stimulate, it should have been education.
Fully Fund Our Schools.
August 14, 2009 at 8:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Heritage, I agree with your entire post. Didn't know the story about our state cheating. The problem I have...education has become the favorite whipping boy for everybody in government and the media. Want to get quick ratings? Knock our education system. Give them merit pay. The thing is, there ARE individual differences. All 3rd graders, whether at Coleman, Field, or Hall, are NOT going to be at the same level. While I think education is too quick to categorize students, the fact that anybody would think all young people are going to learn at the same time and on the same level is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. One of my biggest complaints about the educational hierarchy is that they are always willing to sell their soul for the highest buck. That has always bothered me, and you just gave a convincing argument as to why I am right. One of the presidents--it might have been Reagan--suggested that we do away with the Dept. of Education. I wish he would have. I also still think that any student is going to learn what he thinks is important, or interesting-- not what a state person says is important or interesting to him. Relating to the individual difference comment: People learn in different ways. Some people learn by hands-on practice. Some luckier ones can read instructions and get it the first time. Some people veg-out with a lecture, but show them on a TV or computer screen and it all makes sense. Learning is really for individuals, not really groups, and teachers have to handle that in the best way they can. It can't be easy.
August 14, 2009 at 11:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Heritage I have a rather uncomfortable question to ask. If I was the parent of an LD child, from Edison or Hall, and I wanted to transfer to one of the [passing AYP] schools that didn't have the special program you've talked about, would there be legal problems for the school if they did not provide my LD student with the special class he/she had at Edison? How would that be handled?
August 14, 2009 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
thewatcher24 says...
NCLB dosen't cover special education needs because they are not included in NCLB read the fine print
August 14, 2009 at 11:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sidamo says...
My children attend(ed? still waiting for an official letter) Coleman. There was tremendous pressure on the kids to perform well. Too much pressure, in my opinion. My children always score high, but they often come home stressed. It's sad to see a 9 and 11 year old looking at the side of a cereal box to see if it's a good breakfast before testing, or come home with stories of children complaining about standardized tests on the playground.
August 14, 2009 at 12:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hcat says...
Dilly--if I may, SJSD is able to accomodate any child with a Learning Disability through the use of travelling teachers. For instance, Pershing has a classroom for children with learning disabilities. The teacher can work with the children in her room or--more often--support each child in his regular classroom.
August 14, 2009 at 12:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
Again....as I mentioned in another thread....this "Federal mandate" was created by the SAME EXACT PEOPLE who are attempting to push through a "Federal Health Mandate"......
Does it make you comfortable knowing that impossible goals are being set for St. Joe by elitists in Washington DC?
August 14, 2009 at 12:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
H, pops, I have no problem with a federal mandate if the cash to pay for the mandate comes with it. If you want to mandate, in general, they show me the money. Otherwise, it is not the business of the federal government to finance local public education.
Also, we need to consider the effect of the teacher's unions on this area. They have financed lawsuits against the districts and states to "level" the playing field between districts. Look what mess they created in Kansas.
August 14, 2009 at 1 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
dilly, i have posted this a few times, but here is one article on the flagrant ( stand with your nose in the corner and write "i will not lie" 1,000 times kind of flagrant) abuse of power which former education secretary beck perpetrated on this state.
http://www.thompson.com/public/newsbr...
August 14, 2009 at 2:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
238er, as i have said many times i completely reject any form of unfunded federal mandate, from any administration. that is a flagrant violation of state's rights.
August 14, 2009 at 2:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
chara says...
heritage nice post.
funny how people complain about the mandates from washington,but,come election day they say get rid of such and such, just not my rep. folks if you don't like the mandates stand up and make an informed choice. seems more folks are more concerened about the party and not the person running. that is if they vote at all. its the one true freedom we have in america,exercise it. until you do don't complain.
my dad always said if you don't vote don't complain,if you did scream like hell. its just amazing all the complaints on these post yet the turn out on the april election was just sad. i don't see nov. any better.
August 14, 2009 at 2:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
Pops, real problem is usually the other way. People want the federal money without the strings. Look at the seat belt issue. They are unwilling to give up the money and are willing to dance to the federal tune to get it.
August 14, 2009 at 3:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
stjoeresident says...
What about the kids already at the "passing schools" What choice do they have? Now they deal with larger class sizes, further overcrowding, and more chance to be lost in the system.
Perhaps i should transfer my kid out to the other schools. There may be better teacher to student ratios and more individualized attention. Also, i wonder that transferring isn't really about the test scores but parents realizing that there is a loophole to get around the redistricting that occurred?
August 14, 2009 at 4:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
I STILL say they're only attempting to "dilute" the student body at the schools that ARE passing, to "hide" the failures....and even offering "better students" the opportunity to go to failing schools, to bring THEIR scores up!! Overall, the higher scoring schools will be LESS stellar, and the lower scoring ones will "improve". That, my friends, is NOT fixing the problem....which is poor parenting skills and poor parental involvement in the education process.
August 14, 2009 at 5:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
catwoman says...
I believe 'teaching the test' could easily be misconstrued. Schools *prep* for the MAP test. There is a difference. High School students prep for the SAT. It is the same concept. It is not as if students are memorizing the answers or using cheat sheets. If they were 'teaching the test' don't you think our students would have scored higher?
August 14, 2009 at 7:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Plain and simple this whole and I mean the whole situation is a mess and I do not think the district can work their way out of it at this point.
Oh by thge way Justsayin I got off of work about hour and a half ago which was a 15hr day and just for you info it is 9:30 and my children are going to bed just to let you know my children are being supervised and are not running the streets if you think it is your business. Justsayin I hope you got the point know.
August 14, 2009 at 9:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justsayin says...
I'm just glad you finally MADE a point, mm.
And I thought you maintained that children and their welfare were the business of all of us in this community. Or was that not your point?
August 14, 2009 at 10:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
justsayin,
I do maintain that education of these children the district has moved around and the hardship it has brought onto families is what the district has messed with. I have also stated that the welfare of the children that come to school and the teachers and counslers know things are going on should report this for the welfare of these children. At NO time did I ask you to think that my children were not being taken care of or If I knew where they were and if I knew what they were doing when I was on here posting.And my point to you was that my children are doing just fine and it is none of you damn business where my children are at see there is a difference if mychildren were going to school and the school knew there was a issue then it should be reported but for you to ask where my children are when I am on here posting it is not your damn business so I am glad you got it.Also in closing I have made several points you and some others are just blind to the fact and would not want to swallow your pride to admit that the district has done wrong, so keep your blinders and keep believing it will alright.
August 15, 2009 at 12:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mytwocents says...
ok all my kids are done with school but i havent seen lindberg mentioned and was wondering what was going on with that shcool. are kids not allowed to transfer there for some reason? just thought i would ask and see if anyone had any idea.
August 15, 2009 at 2:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mytwocents says...
well talked to my sister and she answered the above question for me. her kids go to one of the schools. thank you anyway though. stay safe out there.
August 15, 2009 at 3:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greenman says...
You get what you pay for St. "no" - you can absolutely look forward to more of the same as your family's who actually have jobs and can leave the area begin to do so because this community refuses to properly fund the schools. The experienced teachers will leave as well. In risk management it's called adverse selection - it's just a downward cycle here.
August 15, 2009 at 8:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
backster says...
Perhaps everyone should read (instead of bickering like children fighting for the swings at recess) the post by kec1938...he seems to be on to something. The word of the day is accountability. We need to sit down with our children and do our share of teaching at home. It only takes 15 minutes to read a book with your child, 5 minutes (depending on how talkative your child is) to have a conversation about the days events at school, 15 minutes to stop in and talk with your child's teacher to inquire about their progress (if one cannot stop in there is email). Instead of pointing fingers let's take a look at ourselves...the changes we need not only lie with the SJSD they should also start at home. As a community and as parents we should hold ourselves accountable too.
August 15, 2009 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
stjoeresident says...
I kind of agree with some statements. While i think that the statements have a negative conotation about diluting and hiding scores, etc. I think that increasing the diveristy at the schools may actually be better in the long run and put many of the schools on equal footing resource and achievement wise.
August 15, 2009 at 8:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
Diversity of what? Underperforming kids with performing kids?
August 15, 2009 at 11:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
babytger says...
Catwoman, Webster did TEACH the test, for weeks leading up to the test. I have 3 children who attended Webster and Studying for the test and doing worksheets about the test was all they did. They were even told when they did it wrong. My kids were stressed about the test. I kept trying to explain to them that the test was not so much about what they knew but more about how well the teachers were teaching. They were tested so much on the up coming test, it would have been impossible not to pass. I now know why Webster was a top 10 school. Maybe Edison, Noyes and Hall should teach the test also so next year those schools will pass. ( I sure hope they don't)..
August 15, 2009 at 11:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
since the former principal of webster is now the principal at noyes, expect to see noyes become a high achieving school. NOT because they "teach the test" but because this woman is truly a gifted administrator, excellent at team building, and accessible to her students and parents.
i agree with st joe resident that the "shuffling of the deck" will certainly create more diversity and can be looked at as a positive issue from that perspective. re-districting was long overdue, the flaw in this was the closing of two schools which should have been part of the equation.
August 15, 2009 at 11:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
new2u says...
This is very disconcerting seeing how many people argue about what needs to be done. Having just moved to what seems to be the "wrong" neighborhood (perhaps the wrong town!) and just registered my child at one of the "wrong" schools. Am I to have no hope that God gave us a limited budget to buy a house here on this street? I am eternally optimistic (even though I DID my homework on the school system) and will do everything in my power to help my 1st grader's teachers, nurture his talents and increase his skill.
Could you all please set aside any jaded feelings toward this and all of the "I told you so" comments? How many of you serve on your local PTAs? Have you stepped into the principals office and asked what you can do?
When we're up against government and bureaucracy, let's roll up our sleeves and work at a grass roots level.
August 15, 2009 at 11:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
One of the earlier comments discussed school preparation of the SAT. I applaud the schools that do that, largely because it is FOR the STUDENT, NOT the SCHOOL. I always used to applaud Central High School because some of the teachers there would tell the students to concentrate on the ACT and SAT because those tests were about the STUDENTS, not the school. I always thought that was an unselfish act on the part of those Central teachers. The MAP is really about a school or school district preservation. It is also a way for an administrator or an administrator want-to-be to promote themselves. That said, I don't think there's a lot we can do about it, except to applaud those teachers who DO put the students first. I also feel it is worthy to note, that Benton High School, this year, had l8 National Merit Scholars. That impresses me far more than MAP scores.
August 15, 2009 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
stjoeresident says...
i agree with the parental involvement. That is definitely a key.
As far as diversity, i speak in general terms to the idea of the shuffling of the deck. The idea of putting all kids/schools/teachers on closer to equal footing with regards to resources and obstacles that are faced. That is why i support the redistricting that occurred and reevaluation of the boundaries.
I continue to wonder if the current option of choosing to transfer to the schools isn't necessarily about the test scores but about finding a way around the redsitricting.
August 15, 2009 at 2:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lyndon_Barry says...
Perhaps many people don't really understand the MAP program or the significance of these tests. To start, there needs to be at least a vague awareness that there exists a state department of education here in Missouri and this state entity (the DESE) has curriculum requirements for Missouri schools. The MAP tests are written around the state curriculum and tested proficiency levels determine whether kids are learning the state curriculum at their own grade level or if they are not.
I don't know what someone would recommend as a better way of going about it. I suppose it could be entirely subjective where there are schools and districts where grade-level expectations are 'dumbed down' and other schools and districts where teaching is more advanced- and most kids, regardless of what they actually learn fall into the A B and C category. This may be fine for instilling a warm, fuzzy feeling about school quality but does nothing to advance education in the state of Missouri.
In elementary school the MAP subjects are Communication Arts and Math. In a simpler time these were known as the 3 R's- readin', ritin' and 'rithethic- the fundamentals of elementary education. The fact that a higher percentage of St. Joe kids cannot be found to be proficient in reading, writing, adding and subtracting at their own grade level is something that every parent in this school district should find troubling.
Still, people will dismiiss the importance of having standards to be held to and a standardized yardstick for measuring results. 'Teaching to the test' amounts to working with school kids for the better part of a year so they can demonstrate that they have mastered at least the basics of education. Perhaps the MAP program could be expanded to include finger painting and dodge ball so that 'stressful' subjects can be avoided...
August 15, 2009 at 2:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhoisJohnGalt says...
They don't "teach the test." They teach the kids how to take the test in the format the state wants. They teach the curriculum the state wants. That isn't teaching the tests. It is preparing the students. The schools don't even have the tests weeks before testing. I have good idea. The next time your boss tells you to do something a certain way, try doing it any old way you like.
Instead of waiting until "weeks before the test" the teachers should be teaching the test prep from day one. Also, this should be going on in all grades, not just the tested grades.
August 15, 2009 at 3:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
thewatcher24 says...
Something that will be a problem with the AYP transfers is that if a school is full you get your second choice then your third which will be more than likely all the way across town, you watch this will happen more than once and there will be more unhappy people, just because a school is put on that list dosen't mean they will get to go there redistricting was done to put schools at their capacity not to have it exceded by AYP or anything else. so be ready if you transfer to get a trip all the way across town for your child, just be ready
August 15, 2009 at 4:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
lyndon told me today about sample tests for the MAP available on the website:
http://dese.mo.gov/divimprove/assess/...
interesting to see the content and skill level.
August 15, 2009 at 4:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhoisJohnGalt says...
The sky is blue.
August 15, 2009 at 4:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
?iJG....... don't you see the dark cloud?
August 15, 2009 at 4:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_O says...
Then it makes sense to do away with teachings that are OTHER than the 3 Rs, if kids have 6 or 7 subjects, maybe that's to much. I am OLD, and was educated in St. Joseph, and never once since I have been out of school, have I been ask who was the King of Spain in 1504. Overloading ones brain with information that they will NEVER use is a bad idea,and wastes time that could be spent on learning things that we ALL need to know, and most of us will use these learning every day. Do you know that 50% of the students in college don't know what countries border the USA, that should have been learned in 3rd or 4th grade. That leads a lot of people to think that No Matter HOW much we are spending on education, we are NOT getting our moneys worth.
August 15, 2009 at 5:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shopgirl says...
238er, I'd honestly dismiss you as a complete idiot -- and frankly normally I do -- if it weren't for the fact you created a very effective smokescreen with your claim that Webster's record of success was gained merely through "teaching to the test." If "teaching to the test" were that easy, you better believe every school in this district (and probably in this country) would be on board by now. (And maybe children would gain something in the process!) Behind all that smoke, however, the truth remains: this District made a poor decision closing Webster and appears clueless about how to go about providing its children with a viable education.
August 15, 2009 at 5:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
shopgirl
you are diffently correct with you post and the district is clueless at this point and are probably wanting to run and hide under their desk and wish this would all just go away.And they made a very poor decision in closing Webster and seem to me that goes for Neely as well maybe the wrong school was closed between Neely and Hall.Before everybody jumps and says these schools are closed take a look at what keeping these schools open and how it would have helped the issue the district faces now.
August 15, 2009 at 5:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shopgirl says...
mm1967, Thank you for your kind comments; however, you should have gone on to say that I was out of line in referring to 238er as an idiot. Though we differ in our opinions regarding the district, my remark was unkind and inappropriate. 238er, I apologize. :(
August 15, 2009 at 5:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
shopgirl
You are correct and I stand corrected I have not called people names on here as I have been called and I apologize as well 238er.
August 15, 2009 at 5:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_O says...
That was Nice !
August 15, 2009 at 10:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tonya says...
I have a lot of experience with the teachers at Eugene Field and yes, they DO teach based around the MAP testing. I'm sure all of the schools do, since it is part of their curriculum. The teachers HAVE to teach what their told to. And most aren't happy about using the MAP as their guide but they have no choice. They ALL teach to pass the test.
Nothing the teacher does is as important as what's going on in a child's home. I'm not knocking poor people, I am well below the poverty line, but I know many, many poor families who just don't take the time to actually raise their kids & get involved in their lives & education. It's a sad fact of life. And it happens much more frequently in impoverished neighborhoods.
If mom doesn't care enough to get out of bed before you & send you off to have a good day what do you expect to happen at school? Failure the majority of the time.
August 16, 2009 at 12:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scrubnurse says...
My son attends one of the passing schools, and they focus mainly on these tests from Kindergarten on. While I do not put any blame on the teachers, I don't care for the pressure that is put not only on the students, but also on the teachers for these children to do well. Also the kids who DO score well are rewarded while the the others are not, which I think is just wrong! (My son hasn't tested yet as he is too young so my gripe isn't that he didn't get rewarded) but I feel that this is somewhat degrading to the children who do not test well.
August 16, 2009 at 7:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_O says...
Tonya, you are correct, My mother was up and had breakfast started before she even woke us kids, but were talking in the Leave it to Beaver days. Parents should take an active part in the children's education but the new lessons are way more than some know how to help with. When some of us went to school, there was no such thing as Math, Algebra, and Trig, it was strictly Arithmetic and a computer was 26 ft long, weighed 3 tons, had 200 vacuum tubes, and only had the capacity to do basic calculations, and there was no such thing as welfare. You didn't get a $500.00 raise per month just by having another kid. Some of the Government giveaways of today amaze me, and I wonder how much further it will go.
August 16, 2009 at 7:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shopgirl says...
This discussion of "teaching to the test" assumes that passing the test is merely a process of rote memorization and regurgitation of a set of terms. That is simply not the case. The written materials and math problems change on the test; what remains constant is the underlying measurement of the extent to which children can read a passage and comprehend it and work through math problems that require the use of logic. Heritage provided a link to the sample tests and I think it is helpful to look at those. http://dese.mo.gov/divimprove/assess/.... It becomes obvious that devaluing the good work of Webster on the basis of this agument does not make sense.
The OTHER argument -- that poor parenting is the problem -- is more compelling, BUT it assumes that parents in St. Joe are substantially WORSE than parents elsewhere in the country. I simply don't believe that is the case. The anecdotes of children without breakfast, uncaring mothers (why not fathers??) could be told of Anytown, USA. Why are children in the Atlanta school district -- with far, far greater social problems -- excelling? Atlanta brought in a competent superintendent. Didn't change the parents, didn't change the economy, just hired someone to do the job, and it worked. Last year, Atlanta's superintendent was national superintendent of the year. Didn't hear anyone calling her a "cheater" or accuse her high performing schools of "teaching to the test."
Finally, I've just got to get this off my chest. If you are one of those people who GENUINELY believes that there is a systemic problem with parenting in this community that is above and beyond what is found elsewhere(and you're not merely using this argument as political propaganda), I personally believe you have a moral imperative to demand something be done about it. That's much more worrisome than poor test scores. I have yet to see anyone say "Parents are the problem" and ADD "let's do something about it!"
August 16, 2009 at 12:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhoisJohnGalt says...
This is how they pass NCLB in Georgia.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31456640/
I believe we should withhold praise for Atlanta until the investigation is complete.
August 16, 2009 at 8:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
I think that referring to the MAP test as a 3-R Reading, Writing and Arithmetic test is an over-simplification. A test that requires 2 weeks [of many hours a day], and I understand is about 30 pages long, would almost seem to me to be a test of the endurance of the student's "sitter" ,rather than a test of what he or she knows. I find the comparison with Atlanta, Georgia interesting. I know that the Missouri MAP test is considered high in difficulty, when compared with other states. I have no idea what the Georgia test is, because the federal mandate was for progress, no matter what your testing instrument is. For all the testing these young people go through, I would doubt most adults would want to do it. Sometimes I think we tend to forget that questions about our education system largely come from politicians looking for a cause. Education is a whipping boy for anybody who doesn't want to pay taxes on it and any politician who is looking for a cause, relating to an institution that is not good at fighting back. To my knowledge, education has been batted around by presidents at least since Reagan and I'm not too sure anything has changed yet.
August 16, 2009 at 8:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
i find the comment that adults would be loathe to endure such testing interesting, diligent. as a business owner i often found myself taking at least an hour or two several times a week doing what most would call "testing".
my son is employed by a national corporation and is a kitchen manager heading up the ladder. he attends an out of town seminar at least once a month,an 8 hour day, on which they are tested. in fact, aren't "lowly" kitchen workers required ( or soon to be) to take a test on health regulations here in st joseph? have you ever seen the manual which the health department utilizes for inspections?
i think it is simplistic to assert that "most adults" would not want to be tested....... they are every day, at work, and at play.
if children can play the complicated video games of today, they can darn well manage a few standardized tests in the course of a school year.
August 16, 2009 at 8:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
no english? well, i guess maybe we all speak martian, or communicate in the kind of text speak some use these forums? no math? gee, i wonder what those weekly billings were about? and of course, there is NO communication......
test scores Are the "coin of the realm" in school. your point...... is pointless.
August 16, 2009 at 9:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Brennen says...
I agree with Heritage. I think this test can be passed by most students. It's not the test. The problems the schools are facing is the lack of encouragement the children get from their parents, whatever their SES is. The US if falling behind because it's too hard to do homework every night, the schools are demanding too much from our children, I work, I don't have time to work with my children, and on and on. The children who excel at school have parents who have high expectations for their children and they make it a priority. Parents can't expect school to do all their dirty work. I think the schools here are too easy.
And to shopgirl, how would you know if Atlanta school children face far greater social problems? Are you kidding me? I think we have it ALL here.
The only thing I would like to see from the school district is to take the MAP test without any preparation. I think then we would see a true test score. I do know teachers have no idea what will be on the test, but they do prepare the kids on the things that could be on it, and how to write essay answers.
August 16, 2009 at 9:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Heritage, you basically make a good point. I do, however, respectfully disagree because of the maturity level of the 3rd to 6th grader in comparison to mature adults you speak of. I think tests of that length and intensity, are asking quite a bit from many children, 8 or 9 years old. The adult does the testing to become or stay certified. I feel the students are being overly tested, with the MAP, whatever class content course tests there are, district pre and post year tests. Maybe because of the increased certification of people to do their jobs, the comparison to the children's tests may be a little "off." Being a business owner, I have to feel you are more meticulous with the rules than the average adult employee might be. I would also feel much the same way about the person trying to climb the ladder, but I still feel it is more the exception than the rule. Also, in reference to the comment that the test result was the pay... it is something teachers used to tell us, but I somehow don't think it is applicable today. I am just doubting that every student's parent, who is sending their child to school, would want to sit there for those tests.
August 16, 2009 at 10:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Brennen says...
dillygent
I don't know how old you are, but I haven't been in the 3rd grade for about 35ish years, and we took tests similar to the MAP test. They were called Iowa Test of Basic Skills, which is a test still used today in alot of states. So, I don't know where this thinking is coming from that this "testing" is some new-fangled way of learnin'.
August 16, 2009 at 10:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
oh, heck no, i could probably never pass the high school map math section!!!
did you get a chance to look at the younger grades sample tests? ( i could pass the math, barely) basically, reading and comprehension. a major component is being able to read at grade level for speed........ i know that, at that age, my own son would have already been bored with the content directed to that age group.
i have the chance to be around good friend's children, ages ranging from 3- fourth grade. each of these CHILDREN are proficient in age appropriate reading, ( don't know about math) and they sit in front of the video games for hours. now, seriously, i cannot figure out what the heck these kids are doing in these games. there are options, rewards, and a lot of problem solving.
if these children can concentrate for hours on games, then they can darn well do it for a test. no sympathy there from me. ( our sean often characterized me as a "mean mommy")
August 16, 2009 at 10:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Brennen says...
apple,
To your comment about test taking, I consider what the children are doing from the beginning of the year to the end of the year as preparation for the test. To see what they actually have learned throughout the year, would be to take the test without prepping them, maybe on how to fill in the ovals, or how to use complete sentences when answering the questions, but that's it. That's how we would know what exactly they are learning and what they need to improve on. (that's the whole point of the test, you know, there's not a grade)
August 16, 2009 at 10:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
KIDDOS can concentrate on anything.
as a CHILD, I learned to read with the SRA gradated method. i am amused to see that mcgraw hill still offers the program...... updated, of course. we, as Students, were challenged to earn the proficiency to move to the next group. this is NO different than video games. the Challenge is to instill the desire to Compete for their Best score on that day.
there are plenty of computer reading/math games. i have watched with amazement as my friend's little 3 year old stretches her intellect by playing these games. when we were students, spelling bee's created the competitive edge. i know that the northside center cannot keep enough computers in service for the students to use. ditto for the library.
August 16, 2009 at 10:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
megafrog says...
I find it absolutely shocking that Edison would fail the No Child Left Behind criteria. My son was going there and I pulled him out due to the lack of quality education. He had one awesome teacher there, Mrs Hamilton but aside from that, the education was sub par.
August 16, 2009 at 10:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
http://www.dhss.mo.gov/FoodCode/
looks like even an out-dated food handling code would require more than your "sample" question, apple.
*yawn*
August 16, 2009 at 10:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Look the MAP test is here and I personally think it is a good thing that the teachers take the time at certain schools to prep the children for the test a couple of weeks before the test. It is like anything you study for it before you take a test.Some may not like the fact that the MAP testing is here but the fact remains it is here and it is a federal mandate that it is done and if your school does not MET then there are repercussions as there is in life for your own personal actions.And these repercussions are as it seems only handed out to Title 1 schools. That brings up a question what about the schools thatare not Title 1 schools what happens with them if they do not MET for 2 years?
August 17, 2009 at 8:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ApparentlySo says...
Really, one of you needs to pick an argument and stay with it. Again, if it is so detrimental for a kid if he/she moves to a different school and the performance will suffer, then the reason for the move doesn't really matter. Every kid should just stay put. If they move and will still not perform well, then they will just bring the other schools down; if they are already performing well, then obviously they are getting the education they deserve. Look at the data, there are kids who were proficient and advanced, so to say that the education isn't there is just ignorant.
As I stated in the other thread, I don't think a move is detrimental. But to say that the school isn't doing what it is supposed to do based on the AYP, that doesn't mean a lot either. Look at the data, not just the "met/not met" results.
August 17, 2009 at 8:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
ApaerentlySo,
I believe you are talking about the children who will transfer and you are worried that these children will bring the other schools down. Well this is probably not going to happen because most of these transfers will be from Webster students that got transfered to Edison and Noyes.And these other children that transfer are no different than any other child and need to be given the same opportunity that every other child has.I think these children should be allowed to transfer and it just may surprise you that they do good in a different school and they do not bring down the other schools plus it is a Federal mandate that these children be offered a transfer.I would like to know how many transfer request have been made as of today. I would think the NewsPress would be reporting on this as to how many transfer request the district has recieved for each of the 4 schools the children are allowed to transfer to.
August 17, 2009 at 8:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
new2u says...
Open house at Edison is later this afternoon. I personally will be talking to the principal - if available and my son's teacher and the secretary and many other parents to see if the vibe is "a lost cause" or if everyone truly concerned can do anything to bolster community awareness and help.
Sorry shopgirl, it looks as though the only insightful comment (meaning yours) posted has been completely overlooked and dismissed.
August 17, 2009 at 10:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
new2u........ hopefully you are not painting the entire city with the same brush based solely on the comments in this section.
August 17, 2009 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Brennen, the Iowa Test of Basic Skills is NOT like the MAP test. I took the ITBS. Look at the released items on the MAP and make the determination of difficulty, yourself. Heritage, Have you ever heard a child refer to, "working on the computer." To most young people, "playing" on the computer is a release, not drudgery. Maybe the wise test maker should devise a computer test, based on a fun game. It would make millions and the young people wouldn't be as bored and frustrated as they are with the current test.
August 17, 2009 at 11:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
By the way, Brennen, I do remember the Iowa Test of Basic Skills. I remember seeing actual old tests of students, as our preparation for that test. Don't tell me there wasn't preparation. We sure had it...and no, I'm not a product of the St. Jo School District. As a matter of fact, the amount of preparation time, in taking the test, was about equal to the test itself. The two together, the preparation and the test, did not equal the amount of time the MAP takes. I honestly think students here go through test fatigue. There are some people who love to take tests. Some don't. The problem with testing, as validity of the education experience, is that both the scores of test-lovers and test-haters are averaged in together. There have been stories I have heard of students saying to their teachers, "Do we have to test AGAIN? Can't we just learn today?" Heritage, I think I remember you saying you went to private school. Did they have a test battery equal to the MAP and the district tests, in length and difficulty and importance?
August 17, 2009 at 11:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
new2u says...
Heritage, I'm trying not to.
August 17, 2009 at 11:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
Shopgirl,
I think you missed when I said that "parents are the problem", and THEN said that when their children are failing, they should be forced into parenting classes. Someone in one of these threads said (don't remember who), that some of these people don't know HOW to be good parents. OK....I can buy that. Put these people in mandatory parenting classes....give them the tools to learn how to be good parents...how to support and help their children succeed....how to properly discipline the kids....how to interact properly with teachers....how to use available resources to get their kids the academic help they need, if they, themselves, can't provide it.
Bottom line....diluting the test base doesn't help. That's nothing short of a temporary bandaid. To fix the problem, one has to attack the real illness....parents that either don't know how to parent children, or just don't care.
August 17, 2009 at 12:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
dilly, i am older than the whole testing phenomena. actually, i enjoyed tests, have always been very competitive and my son has the same genes...... it was always a goal to be the very best we could be in our family, which goes back to the Very important role parents play in their children's lives.
i respected my parents, and wanted always to please them and make them proud.
i do recall the SRA system and its color coded achievement system. now, in today's "feel good about yourself" mode there is almost no way to put competition into a scholastic environment. for goodness, sake even the ubiquitous "red pen" was targeted as something which would cause self esteem issues!!!
video games are effective because of the stimulus response paradigm they set up. each action has a corresponding reaction, and the "test" in computer games is STRICTLY adhered to. there are no do-overs, no varying in the reward interval, and no gimmes. children rarely have those steadying principles in their lives, anymore.
August 17, 2009 at 12:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
if people would stop saying students hate tests maybe there would be less controversy about it ;0)
apple you are not going to taunt me or draw me into one of your childish games. you want to know what KC network is working on the story, get on the PHONE and find out for yourself. call kq2. i am not playing your games, so this is the only time you will get a reaction from me on that subject.
August 17, 2009 at 12:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
i don't think it would be very polite to point out where i think your head is, apple ;0) have a nice day.
August 17, 2009 at 1:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
humboldt is alive and well. ;0)
ace is in no way opposing the levy. i oppose the sunset, as do you. need i go back and dig up the numerous postings where you, apple, said vehemently that you would Never vote for a levy with a sunset?
you sound an awful lot like my "her manliness" who says i have besmirched her reputation........
August 17, 2009 at 3:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple,
I will give credit to Heritage because she did get involved with the community on a open form and stuck her neck out there and told people who she was unlike you.
You sit and pick everybody apart for their post and belittle them call people stupid and lyers when you do not believe what they post.Oh I forgot to throw idiots in there as well.
What have you done all summer but sit and do this to people.
Now on to the task force you spoke of have you seen or heard anything out of them since they had a meeting at Hausmans? My answer would be no they have been pretty quite for some group that was suppost to be out knocking on doors and running this campaign for the levy.
Now I know you are going to attack me as well for I have been one of the people on here that is totally against the SJSD Administration and the SJSB. These people are still proving that they do not know how to perform their jobs as well as the federal laws. They are trying their damnest to figure a way around this situation that has arised from the schools not met AYP for 2 years which allows transfers from these schools.
August 17, 2009 at 4:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ApparentlySo says...
Actually, MM, I'm just recalling that somebody on these forums was very vocal about how damaging it was to an individual student that would have to switch schools. They clearly said that when a student moves to a new school, that the student would then do poorly. Even when given examples of at least one student doing just fine moving from school to school, that person was still adamant about how detrimental it was to the students and how it wasn't fair to them. He/she even went so far as to quote NCLB as a source about the detriment of moving the student. This detriment wasn't only about one person thought, it was about most students that switch schools doing poorly and how the school district was wrong for shutting down schools and moving students to different schools when it is such a detriment.
As of now, we have people saying that the students should be moved so that they can education that NCLB requires the district to provide them. But how is any student going to do better at a new school when they are going to do worse because of the move?
See what I mean, it doesn't matter if they get switched; because they are automatically not going to do as well (based on someone else's assertion) since they won't perform as well because they got switched. The move to the "better" school gets cancelled out because of the switch. And again, there are students at Edison that were proficient and advanced, so the education is obviously there. So if the proficient and advnaced kids are the ones to switch, then they will be the ones to suffer based on the moving is a detriment argument.
I guess we could switch all the kids who performed well (I don't believe good students will suffer greatly, if at all). It will leave the other schools to fall even further behind. Then the State comes in and takes over. It costs even more money, at SJSD taxpayer expense, when they throw in their requirements and initiate magnet schools, as well as the typical districted schools that they will have to leave in place. Transportation, building, and M&R expenditures will rise. Also add to that, the addition of a high dollar ad campaign to entice students to come to the specialty magnet schools (at the expense of the standard districted school no less) which will sit well with this community (don't you think?).
So which is it? Does the NCLB think it is a detriment to move kids from school to school, or do they require districts to allow kids to move from school to school? Seems to be a major contradiction in principles to me. I don't know about you, but that is a no win situation for the district as well as the student. Apparently both will have less to show for it.
August 17, 2009 at 5:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
anastacia1975 says...
It's not the teachers, its the kids, and more importantly the "parents" who are "raising" them. You all can try and be politically correct all day long and ignore the fact that alot of low income families a child's education takes a backseat. If kid's are not taught to value an education and to respect the teachers there really is little that can be done. Please, before you attack me, sit in a class in one of those "good" schools and then take a seat in one of the "bad" ones. Chances are you will be surprised at how a few disruptive and undisciplined kids can derail a teacher's efforts. It starts at home people, teachers can't save the world by themselves.
August 17, 2009 at 5:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
anastacia1975,
I agree with you, but it's not only low-income children who struggle in school. There are plenty of low-income children who's parents DO get involved and the kids do fine in school. There are some kids who are disruptive, disrespectful, poorly-performing students, and their parents are not low-income. I really believe it comes down to a child being taught to be respectful - respectful of teachers and other adults, respectful of their peers, and, perhaps most importantly of all, respectful of themselves. I contend that without respect, and without encouragement from parents, a child will never be able to succeed in school....or in anything else, for that matter.
August 17, 2009 at 6:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
ApparentlySo,
It is damaging to all of these children to be moved, but the fact remains if the ones who were moved from Webster and the ones moved from Neely that were sent either to Edison or Noyes,and Hall now have a choice where they want their children to go to school not where the district wants them to go. I was also a supporter of the transfer policy as well and still am.ApparentlySo this all could have not came to this if it was not for the actions of the Board and the administration.They are the ones calling the shots and some have came back to bit them in the butt.
And you are correct we really do not want the state to take over but it seems as if that is the direction it is going.
You also touched on expenses, do you not think that since schools were clossed and this will account for the majority of the transfers and this is not going to cost as well? They are talking about trailers at the 4 school which these students will be allowed to transfer to which is a hugh cost and not to mention the fact of transportation of these students. Seems if they could have taken a different approach to all of this back in May. They had to have some kind of idea that this was going to happen with these 3 schools not meeting the standards which allowed the transfers of these students.As I have stated before the whole situation is a mess and the district as well as the public need to work together but it will take both sides not just one. And the board and the admin will have to have a open mind as well as the public will have to have it is called teamwork.And yes the children deserve this, a great education from our schools.
August 17, 2009 at 7:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ApparentlySo says...
So you are avoiding the point. Kids are still being moved; according to someone in this forum it is always detrimental. So it really doesn't matter if a parent gets their choice. The child still gets moved and still will not perform as well because of the school.
Understandably, you are ecstatic that you and other parents are getting some say in where your children go. But again, they still won't perform as well since they are getting moved from their school, isn't that what was said? So if they don't perform as well, it really doesn't matter where they attend. Especially when the school they won't have to attend now did teach some of the students to a proficient and advanced level. So if it wasn't the education directly, what is the real reason you didn't want your children to attend one of "those" schools?
As well, it isn't just the children that are being moved that will have a choice to move, it is all students. So what happens should all of the students move to "better" schools and all students bring the scores down? Then what do we do?
August 17, 2009 at 8:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
ApparentlySo,
Yes I still believe that the 1400 children that have been displaced are going to have issues this year. Now to get to the transfers from Edison,Neely,and Hall.It is going to be a hard adjustment for them still if they transfer,but at least they have a choice at this point and the parents can take some comfort in the school their children get to attend as well as some say so.
Now my children do not attend any of these schools and I have said this several times. I have had my own issues several times with the district and have been ignored or lied to several times. My children are honor roll students and are not trouble makers ect ect. I just had some legitamite issues and concerns and was filled a line of bull by the district cause they thought I would just accept it and go away.Was my children affected by redistricting,sure they were.My children expressed their concerns to me and as their father it is my job to stand up for their rights as well as what happens to them in their education.Because I care about my childrens future.I am a parent that cares about what happens to my children and they are being raised to be very respectful citizens to everybody with morals and values.
August 17, 2009 at 9:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ApparentlySo says...
MM, what you are saying is all fine and good about concerns. But having a say so in the school is not the same as stating adamantly that kids moving to a new school is detrimental. If you don't believe that to be the case, why make it your platform? If you do, then how can you sit there and pretend it's all good? It was obvious that you were just using any possible reason to argue against the redistricting, but now it's just "having a choice". Technically, the only choice a parent could make before is what house they bought, but that only lasts as long as the boundaries (effectively meaning they have no choice).
For the record, I'm ecstatic that the kids at Brittany Village (36th Street Apts for those of us that lived there 30+ years ago) have the choice to go to Coleman. That's where they should have been going all along. Really, if it's okay to bus the kids that live within 4 blocks of the school to someplace else, why not just bus the kids that were being bused to Coleman to Noyes? Funnily, I don't think the district's boundaries have ever been worth a pile. But not because of scores on standardized tests (which have been shown to be biased), but more so because of the socio-economic classes. Even with those issues, I still do not think one school was better than another. Maybe what the district should do, is just move all of the staff from a "good" school to a "bad" school. Since it is a "staff issue", then we should see the "good" go "bad" and the "bad" go "good". Too bad they won't do it.
August 17, 2009 at 9:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sidamo says...
Those requesting AYP transfers have less choice everyday. Gene Field is full according to one teacher, and Coleman is generally the "2nd" choice. It will fill quick, and there are over 100 AYP transfer requests as of last night's open house without a slot.
It's almost like we need a couple of more schools open.
August 18, 2009 at 8:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
i agree with that sidamo. don't forget though that both of the closed schools met ayp and were title one. being title one would have eliminated them as transfer schools, but i believe that the populations from those two closed schools are likely to be adding to the population which is saying they demand a choice.
if gene field is full, and coleman is fast filling, then, imo, the elementary transfer students of teachers who are not following Their Own Parent As Teacher must be revoked, along with any previously accepted "hardship" transfers.
what is good for the goose........... the district should man up and identify how many in the elementary population are teacher qualified transfers. the silence on this reversal of a mandate declared in the wake of the failure of the levy/bond has been deafening. if the district is going to repeat over and over again that they are Only Doing What They Said They Would Do in reference to closings and redistricting, then their policy reversal on teacher transfers should absolutely Not be allowed to close spots to students involved in the NCLB mess.
August 18, 2009 at 11:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Seems like what I have been saying the District should have left Webster And Neely open. If Hall had been closed and those students were sent to Neely and Parkway and Marktwain there would not be hardly any transfers because Webster and Neely would be operating as schools.Nice mess the District has caused.
August 18, 2009 at 11:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sidamo says...
I'd like to know how they'll decide which children to pull from the school they start tomorrow... Hardship Transfers or Teacher Transfers... to make way for AYP Transfers. Someone will be getting pink slips. Could be my child. Plus, let us know WHO is approving the transfers that weren't supposed to happen a month ago. I thought transfers were no longer in principals' hands.
August 18, 2009 at 12:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freedom says...
Well said kec1938
August 18, 2009 at 1:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple,
So what you are saying is that this is the districts way of forcing people to vote for the levy and the bond? I think that is still the bully attitude we have been talking about. And if you are that darn blind to the fact that the district caused this mess you may need to look at this issue a little harder and longer.Take you blinders off.
Apple as usual you miss the point there is no money to build these new schools you speak of and you make due with what you have till you can afford to build these new schools.
Also APPLE these 18 schools were funded for several years with the money the district had and 35.5 million surplus could have kept these schools running with the revenue they still bring in. I know this is hard for you to understand but the District is not going to get money to build these new schools at this point in time so you need to get over that issue yourself. Now they do still have 2 school buildings that could be schools but they sit there not being used what they were built for.I personally have not seen Neely leaning over getting ready to fall anytime soon and Webster is in good shape but we are paying to keep it open for other things.Now when it is really needed for a school at this point. You can disagree with me all day but if you look at the whole picture at this point it did not make any sence to closed these schools as they did, as well as the 3 school that did not met and have to allow transfers. It would look real good since there is no money to build that these schools were open and there would not be all of these issues this morning.
YouR train of thought as well as the districts has caused all of these problems and your alls way is not working and will not work and has created one hell of a mess has it not.
August 18, 2009 at 1:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Hey Apple,
Another thought it is kind of funny that this current mess continues to point back to keeping these schools open that they closed.
We will support a levy to operate the schools but not one for new schools at this point.
Look around economy is not getting any better peoples money is tight.
August 18, 2009 at 1:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
momswisher says...
Just a question.....Besides the savings of 35+ million didn't the schools also get another 3.5 mill from the government last month? Making it now 38+ million?
August 18, 2009 at 2:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
apple says:
Here are the simple facts -
The district does not have the funding to operate 18 schools
Hmmm....doesn't quite fit with apple's later assertion....
apple further states:
The simple choice is to bring back the levy and build two new schools.
I'm no mathematics whiz, but it seems to me....that would make the school count....let's see...count the fingers....18!! I thought apple said they couldn't afford to operate with 18 schools!!
Then, apples says:
Hopefully all you haters can see past your selfish reasons and now understand that had we followed the districts plan, we would have kept two schools open, building two new ones and NCLB would not have been such a bad problem.
So....according to apple, if we "haters" hadn't been so selfish and voted the levy down, we'd have kept the two closed schools OPEN....and built two NEW ones, too!! That brings the school count to....wait a minute...don't help me....20!! Somehow, apple's math just doesn't add up!!
apple continues:
I don't want to read it's the districts fault. It is your responsibility to fund your public education, you are not. Pulling funding because you don't like somebody is horrible.
apple, no one pulled funding because of personality conflicts or disliking someone. The levy failed because the district has not been forthright and transparent, and people aren't interested in an open-ended tax for a district they don't trust. The district leadership was advised to keep the sunset clause in, and they ignored the advice...and you see the result.
apple's solution/resolution:
The only way out, the only way to move foward is to get the money back. What is even more dishearting is that keeping the levy and building would have probably been the less amount of tax increase anyone in this town would have seen.
This is merely conjecture on your part....no substance.....
August 18, 2009 at 2:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BCotter says...
I think that was for that one guy's wife's furniture from Kearney or something.
KIDDING!!!!
August 18, 2009 at 2:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
No apple making due means keeping open the schools you have till you can afford new ones which we are not at that point yet.
Also by closing these schools and redistricting these students to Title 1 schools which did not met for 2 years and now giving the parents the right to transfer was plain dumb move on the district part.
They had to know this was going to create this mess and as you stated their train of thought is now the public will have to pass the bond and the levy for we can get new schools.
If this mess has not taught you and the district anything this is a form of bulling the public and the public in St Joseph will just push back and say no.
How long is this whole situation that started at the district level going to continue and they are not willing to work with or communicate with the public? Is it going to get to the point the state steps in?It sure looks that way. And November does not look any brighter as well for the levy.
See Apple it is simple the general public with exception of the public that believe along the lines you do will not support these people in charge or trust them to do anything at this point. Look as I have said listen to the general population of our community and look and see there will be a large turn out in November to send them a clear message.
There will also be a large turn out in April to replace the 2 board members watch and see.
You know I am not the only one who thinks it was a bad move to close schools before they had new ones to replace them and public said no to any new schools at this point.The levy would have passed in April if it had the sunset claus on it and the district had not put the bond issue to build new schools at the same time. Then they could have easily keep these schools operating that they closed.I know you are goingto say Mr Smith told them this but she left the partout about keeping these 2 schools open.I do not think the sunset is the way for the long term but it would have passed with it one the ballot that way.
Anyway you look at it this is one hell of a mess and it is going to be hard to fix and the district has lost more public support at this point. These are my opinions.
August 18, 2009 at 2:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sidamo says...
And the gavel falls. Well said mm. Look for a full distraction-riddled high-paid-attourney-style rant to follow.
-One of the Haters
August 18, 2009 at 3:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yougottabekiddingme says...
Here is what is confusing me. Apple says that our district has been operating with the lowest funding in the state YET we know they have managed to save up one of the highest reserves. To me, this means things were sacrificed. Perhaps instead of saving the money, our district should have used it to properly educate our children. Here is another thing to consider: HAD the district used the money to properly educate our children and not saved it, their reserves would have been less and the voters wouldn't accuse them of hoarding money. Now it just looks like they were hoarding money when they should have been spending it on something else (LIKE EDUCATING OUR KIDS!!!)
Our kids got the shaft if you ask me.
August 18, 2009 at 6:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
OK Apple then they had 3 years to get a plan together and earn the publics trust before they had to close these schools.
Apple 35.5 million dollars is alot of money and they will still be collecting revenue minus the levy at this point.
3 years is a long time to have acted so quickly and harshly and now create all of these problems for yourself as they have done.I personally think some of them should turn in the resinations or be terminated.
Apple after all these people(board) have done to our schools do you think they atand a chance in heck getting re-elected?
Apple let me spell it out for you the people of St Joseph said no to new school at this time so they should have operated the schools they closed and if they wanted to close one it should have been Hall it is falling apart till they put a plan together that the public would have supported.
You stated and I remember reading they had enough money to run 3 years and then they also recieved the other 3.5 million off of the pipe line I believe, which is a total of 35.5 million dollars.
The people downtown are not looking to good right now to the public and have lost more of the publics trust.
August 18, 2009 at 6:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sidamo says...
appleBoardSmithFlowers, "Hoarding" isn't the appropriate word. mm nailed it - "Plan".
(Fail to Plan) = (Plan to Fail)
It "appears" to all of us "Haters" that the district thought itself "just fine" until the levy came due, then, "all of the sudden" there was panic and independent audits. 5 years ago the levy was going to "maintain and improve" our schools. After 5 years 2 of our schools were so bad that Dr. Smith and Mr. Rucker almost cried at a school meeting (yes, I personally witnessed it myself, 238er).
You know, they're right. It's a crying shame. And, you're right too, apple, we hate that.
August 18, 2009 at 8:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple
First I do not know how many times I have told you that I was raised not to hate anybody or anything.
And this is the plan the district worked on for 3 years, then they are pretty bad administrators and really do need to be replaced. Apple they now have another 3 years to come up with a plan the people will support before they run out of money and if they were smart it would only take them at the most 2 years to get it done and the public behind it.
And if you want to refer to me as Hater so be it but I understand very clearly that had a bad plan and it failed and the district cannot admit defeat and that they were wrong.
I also understand they have one hell of a mess at this point and they will blame this on the public as well.
But think about this Apple the people of St Joseph control the boards and the administrations destiny.They have taken a bad situation and made it a whole lot worse and the public will send them another message in November and then I bet some peoples jobs will be in jepordy at that point.
Not to mention how everything they have done has or will affect our communitys children.
August 18, 2009 at 8:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple,
First I would like to say I vote YES/YES and now I will vote yes for the operating levy but I as a tax payer want answers and I do not believe these people downtown.
And apple the school with the worst mold is still open and not closed as I have said Hall should have closed and the other 2 remained open.
August 18, 2009 at 8:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
"As to the other posts, actully (sic) the reserve of 35 million is considered low to districts our size. "
this statement is false. the district currently has a higher percentage of reserve than is considered the acceptable norm, according to the disrict's own janet pullen at at least three BOE regular meetings.
August 18, 2009 at 9:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
So apple what was the reason the district hoarded 35.5 million dollars.
Could it be that there were scared that their plan would not work they were working on for 3 years and they would need the money?
I agree with what yougottabekiddingme said OUR CHILDREN GOT THE SHAFT.
August 18, 2009 at 9:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
mm, how many times must I post this explanation.
The district planned to build two new schools. This requires two things. Borrowing money and startup costs. One borrowing money, among other things, the bond rating agencies look at the a district's reserve funds when rating the bonds. The higher the reserves the better. The agencies also look at items like tax base growth which St. Joe does not have in spades so the district can control the amount of reserves and can counterbalance the lack of growth with higher reserves. As the district did plan on borrowing funds to build the two new schools the higher reserves would have lowered the interest rate on the bonds.
Second is having sufficient funds to cover the start-up costs of the new schools without tapping the reserve too hard and thus hurting the bond rating.
August 18, 2009 at 9:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
238ER,Apple
The district planned to build 2 new schools and the public said no.Then the district got mad and said well we will close 2 school and then move these children and redistrict and move and distrupt 1400 childrens lifes.
Where they went wrong was they did not think ahead when they put these students from Webster in Edison which has caused almost all of the Webster students to transfer back out of Edison because of not meeting the standards and cause all of this overcrowding at the other schools.
Now by doing this the district will bully the public to think they have to vote for the bond for we can build these school because they need the room as per apples statement.
Just one problem with their plan they made to many people mad along the way.
They have enough money for 3 years to operate and could have worked with the public to get a long term plan that both side would agree to before the money ran out.
Now they have pissed enough of the public off they will be lucky to see anything this is how the children will get the shaft.
If this is the plan that the district worked on for 3 years as Apple has stated then they did a very bad job and should resign.
These are just my opinions.Wait an see what tommorrow brings the first day of school there will be all kinds of confussion.
August 18, 2009 at 10:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
apple,
You talk about mm not paying attention to anything anyone posts. I'd say you do the exact same thing. You also refuse to accept that anyone other than you has a viable opinion.
The levy failed because it had no sunset clause....the district was warned not to remove it, and they did it anyway. If they expected the levy to fail, they were right. If they'd left it in, it would have passed. The bond issue failed because anyone knows you don't put two tax issues together on the same ballot. There are too many people feeling the financial pinch of the economy...too many people doing without many things they used to have, and they just don't want a double-whammy of two taxes....one a continuation, and the second a new tax.
I'd also point out that no one can say the district closed the two schools because the levy failed. They were going to close them anyway....even if the levy passed. Those two schools will REMAIN closed, even if the new levy initiative passes. I would also say that the district didn't close those schools as a punitive measure. In my own opinion, I DO think the choice of schools was punitive, and I think the way the new boundaries were drawn was punitive. Say what you want....I'm sure you won't agree. Don't care, either....I made it clear it was my opinion....
August 19, 2009 at 6:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
mm, problem is that the district can not run at a deficit.
This is more like a domino issue. One got knocked over and the rest fell. Problem was folks like you thought that only one would fall.
August 19, 2009 at 7:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
238er,
One is all that really did fall, we still are paying to keep Webster open for the district to house other things. Are we not?
They have a mess they created,the public did not make these decisions they did.
Now they are going to have to clean their mess up or someone from the outside will clean it up like the state.
As I stated above if this is the PLAN the district worked on for 3 years then they are some pretty bad administrators and managers.
Hopefully this morning all of the children at the schools that were allowed to transfer to have a seat in their class room.
If they do not have a seat sure would look good for these schools to be open.
Do you think that if the district has 35.5 million and they kept these 2 schools open that they would not have a levy in place before this money ran out.
For all of you that do not believe the above statement then you all as well do not any confendence in the people in charge to get a levy passed.
August 19, 2009 at 7:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
Where did this 35.5 number come from? If you're adding any stimulus money it has been designated for certain spending by the feds. It must be spent and can not be used to offset other expenses. It must be new spending.
August 19, 2009 at 9:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sunny32701 says...
We moved here from another state about a year ago. My child attends Hall. The schools here in St. Joe are 10 times better than where we were.
In our old district the buildings were new, the desks, playground equipment, library books were all newer than what Hall has. My childs old school had a baseball feild, many basket ball courts, soccer feild, a relatively new gym. But the teachers just didn't care.
My child stuggled for 3 years at this school.
Then we moved to St. Joe. My son suddenly loves school. I get a call from the principle letting me know what a great job my child is doing in school! My child is reading one grade level ahead. When my child was struggling in math he was put into an afterschool tutoring program. His teacher was amazing! She actually listened to my concerns. She really CARED! So does the principle.
I'm saddened by all this bickering over levy's and NCLB. I'm not sure what the right answer is for the districts problems. The building is old and so is most of the equipment, but the PEOPLE there are wonderful. I'm so grateful for what the staff at Hall has done for my child and I will continue to send my child to Hall even tho is failed AYP.
August 19, 2009 at 9:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
sunny,
My children attended Hall School, and the staff, teachers and administration there are great. However, they're no different than any other school in our district. We DO have great people, on the school level. At the district level, they're not so great. I will say, our current DS is a HUGE improvement on the loser we used to have in that position...in my opinion.
Funny thing, though, I'm surprised that your child is doing so well...and is able to excel, especially since Hall has such an old building!! Some on this site insist that newer buildings would do wonders to help kids be better students!! I still say buildings have nothing to do with it....that involved, encouraging parents are the key, coupled with a good teaching staff and school administration.
Glad you chose St. Joe.....if you haven't been welcomed yet, welcome to St. Joe!!!
August 19, 2009 at 10:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
johncourter says...
The arguments school districts and teachers associations have made with this have not been strong enough. As a taxpayer, I am not overly thrilled some of my tax dollars have been used to fight a federal mandate with very little public input. Time and time again Federal judges have upheld the mandate. Teacher's associations and districts throughout the country who have challenged this failed. The argument has been the same, not enough funding to support compliance to NCLB. They have not been able to prove their case, none of them have. It is interesting as it is related to funding. Only a handful of cases got away from the funding element and challenged from an ADA point of view. That argument may have some merit, but until it is proven it does in a court of law, the mandate stands. When this was challenged there was very little public outcry. At the time, it was not a concern. NCLB was a continuation of a previous program going all the way back to the 60's. Not much changed in its overall concept, there were some amendments to it. With that said, there is nothing in the mandate that states "punitive" or "sanctions". It is very short, simple, and very clear of the requirements and the actions that apply when there is failure. We want to argue "punitive" then that case lends itself directly to the school closings after the levy failure, if the mandate is being considered a punitive measure, then so is that, which then presents validation that decision processes to close those 2 were influenced by NCLB. So which is it, is the NCLB punitive in its mandate or not? If it is then so were the closures in my view and once again validation will go to Cathy's opinions. The truth, NCLB has been upheld time and time again in the court of law. I need no more validation until it is challenged and a solid argument convinces the federal courts to rule otherwise. Until then it exists and we have to live with it and need to find solutions to meet the mandate, it is that simple. And I will continue to stand by my original stand on the levy issue, the sunset clause is not the solution. In my view it will put the district in a worse situation then it is now without any levy. It holds things back like it always has had. Find another solution for the long term instead of a proposed band aid solution. As far as groups go and providing information, nothing is coming from the Task Force at all. If you are going to attempt to dictate public policy, provide status updates and information.
August 19, 2009 at 12:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Johncourter,
You touched on the task force and you are very correct nothing is coming out of the task force.
They said they were going to go door to door and through all of the neiborhoods ad I have not heard of this taking place at all. The only thing I personally heard was they held a meeting At Hausmans.
I also heard mention that one of the Gentlemen on the task force(Gary Myers)I believe was going to run for the board. I do not know how true this is but he better learn to communicate with the public or he stands no chance of winning a spot on the school board we have enough of those people on there now that do not know how to communicate with the public.
August 19, 2009 at 4:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
catwoman says...
I will admit to anyone that math has never been my forte. I have no concrete idea how much money it takes to run a school. Here is my question. SJSD closed Webster, because due to a low student population it was a waste of money to continue keeping it open. Now that it is closed it will be a preschool, administrative offices and the Ruth Huston learning center as well. Is the ammount of money they are saving really worth all the headaches caused by closing the school in the first place? I think I would be more satisfied if I could actually see numbers. I know it won't change anything, it is simply an interesting concept to ponder.
August 19, 2009 at 4:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple
You are lost,here it is again for you.Schools that were closed and sent to title 1 schools that did not met for 2 years and those are the children who are transfering not the children who attended theses title 1 schools.
So as said and most of the public agrees keepping these schools open would have not created this mess.
I do not wantto hear your spew on money the district told us and all of that they have money point blank and if they would work with people and be honest they would have another levy passed. The ball is in their court.Their Plan Back fired on them not own up to it and clean it up or move on and let someone else clean up your mess.
August 19, 2009 at 4:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
Seems to me it doesn't make any sense to close the schools they've closed, and leave open some that SOME folks here claimed, earlier, were in much worse shape. Was Webster or Neely in structurally worse shape than Hall or Edison? Is it mere coincidence that the Webster and Neely areas were the heaviest "NO" results? Makes one wonder....
August 19, 2009 at 4:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
mm,
I believe you are confusing Title One and NCLB AYP standards. All schools are under AYP standard while not all schools are Title One. While the two overlap they are not the same. Both are part of the NCLB which is the 2001 reauthorization of the 1965 Elementary and Secondary Education Act.
By closing Webster as an elementary school the district is able to save the significant cost of staffing the building. The programs moving to Webster are existing staff at other facilities. I would assume that the district will either re-use or get rid of the other facilities.
In talking to folks familiar with both Neely and Hall, they say Neely was the worse of the two. I think Edison has a larger facility than Webster and more kids in the immediate area.
August 19, 2009 at 6:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
johncourter says...
Apple, you mis interpet what I stated, I stated "no real concerted effort" has been made. All of the efforts that have been attempted failed, they were not strong enough. If there was a huge agenda to go against this out there, it would be a much stronger case. I am not backwards at all. I stand by what I have to say just as much as you defend the school district and task force. In my view, Task Force support has dwindled, that is why there is very little coming out of that camp, it is simple. And no effort they make will convince me the sunset clause is the way to go. I have made my points heard with on it past posts and continue to stand by it. Sunset clause hinders, not helps and has been continually validated. In reality if there was such a breakout of swine flu the government would be all over it and there would be quarantines, so your analogy has a very real potential of becoming somewhat of a reality. The analogy does not hold up in my view. NCLB is a federal mandate. It is in play and until such a time it is not in play we need to find solutions to make it work. The school closure thing, not a reach at all. The positions that appear to have been taken on NCLB continue to lean towards validations to Cathy's opinions. Coupled with all the "not enough funding" arguments and the validation continues gain credence. Honestly, I hope to see the whole thing mushroom on a national level in a couple of years.
August 19, 2009 at 6:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
john, I wouldn't mistake silence for lack of effort. I'm sure the task force is getting their ducks in a row for a campaign closer to the election date. They do not want to peak too early. They do not want to burn out.
August 19, 2009 at 7:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
238er,
I do not know who these people are but Neely was in better shape and the mold issue is at Hall and Neely had a fairly new addition on it.Really it does not matter the district made a mistake and closed schools to early like it or not.Also if Neelys building is in this bad of shape who would want to buy it?
If they want to get the public support the task force better start moving. I remember them saying in the summer they were going to go door to door in the neiborhoods.So what is the real problem are they afraid the doors are going to get shut in their face?And I do not buy the burned out therory, if they are this strong of a believer that they can get this passed and do nothing to get out in the community this levy will fail.Lets see the election is a little over a couple of months away.
August 19, 2009 at 7:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
For all you who support what the district has done to our communitys children go to the other colum about the district and the employess and their pep rally and read CJT post and what is happening to their children. I call this a outrage and would be calling for peoples jobs over this.
August 19, 2009 at 8:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
Wow!!! The great "apple" has spoken so everyone need not worry about any of this anymore. Makes me wonder why any of us have spent any time at all, formulating our opinions, digging into the facts, to figure out on our own what's been happening. All we had to do, all along, was ask apple. We could have spent all that time...well...watching our grass grow, listening to the clouds float by and smelling air.......
August 19, 2009 at 8:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple,
First I would like to say that I seen small children this morning crying they were in a new school and none of the children they were in school with before was there with them. That had to be a little tramatic on the child.And No Apple it was not hard on my children because we moved out of our home we own to the area where our school was to keep our children in their school.So you see I care dearly about my children and things that affect them and their education.UnLike people like you who have no clue how this whole mess has affected the children.
August 19, 2009 at 10:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
johncourter says...
238er, just sharing a view point. We will see how it plays out as time moves forward. It will be interesting to say the least.
August 20, 2009 at 12:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
The point is, my dear apple....YOUR viewpoints and YOUR opinions are NOT the only ones. Some of us HAVE spent time digging....we just uncovered something different than you, but we still did the digging, and formed our own opinions and views. Just because we differ from you doesn't make our views or opinions any less valid than yours. Mind you....I haven't called you names, and certainly haven't insisted that since you differ from me, you're a "hater".
August 20, 2009 at 9:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yougottabekiddingme says...
I agree with pops - only one hater here, it's Apple. Apple hates anyone who doesn't think like he does.
August 20, 2009 at 3:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple,
I have alway supported our schools and will continue.Are we not supose to vent our fustrations with the district?I am not blaming anybody for my problems.I blame where blame is due and that is the board and the district admin,not our teachers and not our local school administrators. Just the people downtown.
Apple somehow you are tied to the district or this Task force I just havent figured it our but for some reason you are to strong of a supporter of these people who have made this mess.Apple if you are tied to the task force they should save their money because in Novemvber the public that you think are stupid and hicks and idiots will speak very clearly and vote the levy down again. It will not pass till Board members and admin are replaced.
I would really appreciate it if you would not refer to me as a HATER because that is far from the truth.
Also heres a concept for you if you believe this town is so full of Haters why do you stay here? To you we are just stupid hicks that do not know anything.
August 20, 2009 at 9:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple,
By the way I did Complain about KCP&L raising our light bill,remember the psc had a open meeting here in town about the light company wanting to increase our rates.OK apple in you eyes I am a Hater and the majoroty of St Joseph according to you falls into this catagory to you as well.Look I am here posting and there are alot of people who do not but will speak very loudly come November just because of the board and admin. Now you will vote no because there is a sunset, I do not agree with the sunset but the majority did. But now it is not about a sunset or not a sunset it is not about the mess we have in our schools and that is what will make the levy fail.By the way if you havent figured it out the school district and board at this point has a very big magnifing glass on them they did to themselves.
August 20, 2009 at 10:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Maybe you should moved to Kansas City,Liberty,Bluesprings, or Olathe, see these communitys have more money than St Joseph Does maybe that is the reason you see signs saying thank you voters or maybe it is because there leaders are trusted.
August 20, 2009 at 10:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple,
Key word there "FIRED".See if this superintdent got fired we have maybe the levy would ppass as well.
August 21, 2009 at 2:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yougottabekiddingme says...
Apple, it is not good for democracy to have unwavering trust in your leaders. You should question your elected officials, it is one of the few things that keeps them honest.
August 21, 2009 at 3:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
yougottabekiddingme,
I find it interesting how that NOW, it's not the right thing to do to question our leaders....now that the Democrats have the White House, and both chambers of the Congress. There have been some statements, of late, from members of the Congress, who have been very critical of Americans for speaking out and taking a stand regarding the health care issue. Funny thing...it was perfectly FINE to be vocal and outspoken when President Bush was in office....
I agree with you totally....a GOOD democracy is one in which the people are wary of big government, and do NOT follow blindly.
August 21, 2009 at 3:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
I understand most of what is being expressed here,except for one thing. I fail to comprehend why a person would vote against a levy, because it had a sunset in it. I am sure a school district would much prefer no sunset, because that is moneys the school district knows it is always going to have. But, you go with the cards you're dealt and that is what the school district is left with--a sunset. District administrations SHOULD realize that elections are won BETWEEN election times, for that is when trust is earned. Somehow, I don't think the district has passed that test. The district administration seems to have the idea that all is well as long as they, as individuals, are not in trouble. They do not appear to have much of a collective conscience, either. I am less concerned about the closing of Neely than HOW they closed Neely. A school that had taught and cared for children for one hundred years, had no celebration or closure. The last one out just closed the door. Relating to Dr. Smith...I was watching the television report the night both issues failed. I have thought about this for months, and to this day, I still can't decide if her attitude was anger, vengefullness, or disappointment. If it was disappointment, I can't decide if it was disappointment for the children or the community, or for the administrators.
August 21, 2009 at 4:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ApparentlySo says...
I wonder how much she would get if they would fire her? I guess even if it was a substantial sum, it would be worth it.
August 22, 2009 at 9:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
johncourter says...
My vote is no for a sunset and I have stated very clearly in past posts as to why. I will not give support to a system that is not efficient and is also responsible for holding back progression. There is a huge difference between a sunset clause levy and a permenant one. Sunset means shelf life. We either need the levy or we don't. No compromise, no halfways. I am very disappointed the district has not held its ground to its original convictions to improve the entire operational process. I do not want to see this argument again in 5 years, if the district continually needs additional funding for operations and improvement then argue for it and engage the public to get the majority buy in to vote for it. The sunset argument in my view only validates it is not needed on a permenant level.
August 23, 2009 at 12:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
johncourter,
The district CAN stand it's ground, and not settle for a sunset clause. The people, including me, have clearly said that is not an option. Therefore, the district can either learn to live WITHOUT the levy, period, or compromise and put the sunset clause back in. While I understand your feeling about the sunset clause not being an efficient solution, it's the only one you have....if you truly want the money coming it. I, on the other hand, refuse to support something that gives no oversight from the community...and no accountability for the district decision-makers. That's it from my point of view...plain and simple. Either leave the oversight with the people, and keep the money coming in, or force the issue for a permanent levy, and forfeit the income. If the district had listened before, they'd not be dealing with the lack of the levy now. They refused to listen, and see what happened?
August 23, 2009 at 1:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple, there are plenty of reasons for people to vote no but you would never understand any of them so It would be a waste of anybodys time to explain it to you.
August 23, 2009 at 2:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
mm actually apple has agreed with and plans to give a no vote on this levy and its sunset?
August 23, 2009 at 2:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Heritage,
I bet that was hard for her.Now I wish we could work on her name calling of people in the commnity.
August 23, 2009 at 4:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple go to bed I have posted several times I do not HATE ANYBODY.This the way I was raised unlike you.You hate anybody that does not agree with you at all times and anybody that creates waves.I am glad I keep you going.I think I have touched on different things but I will point out evertime this admnistration has lied,created a mess and hurt the district schools,and created hardships for familys.Unlike you , you think all of this mess is just hunky dorry and these folk have done everything right.It is not rational to be mad for all of this mess when you have children it affected and affected out WHOLE communitys children?It not rational to be mad that almost all of our schools are overcrowded? Its not rational to be mad at these folk when they outright lie to the public? Is in not rational to mad about children not having books for over a week? Is it not rational to be mad about children still getting moved around and this is the 2nd week of school coming up? Apple what makes you mad except me?
August 23, 2009 at 9:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
johncourter says...
Pops, respect your viewpoint and understand the accountability concern, however I do disagree with it. There are other processess out there to hold accountability. I do not believe the sunset clause is the only option. I believe that option should no longer be in play and the argument should be for either a permenant levy to improve or we live with the existing resources. If I was on the BOE I would be adiminately arguing for a property tax re-distribution through municipal and state processes that will cover the current basic operational needs. And then go after an argument for a permenant levy that is designed to improve not hinder.
August 24, 2009 at 2:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Actually, John, I kind of feel sorry for the BOE. They joined the board for whatever reason they did, but, if they read these posts, they are not necessarily among the most respected group in town. I admire your ambition to go for the levy without sunset and I agree with your reasoning. I just feel with this economy, you go for what you can get. Understanding where they come from might be a benefit. If this levy fails in November, the day after the election, we can all speculate on what they should have done. But, they must live with it and run the risk of more irate posts, kind of like what is going on now.
August 24, 2009 at 9:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lizzie says...
After attending the School Board meeting this evening its apparent the administrationn is implementing the NCLB regulations so that they are benefiting the district and not the students. After further delving into the NCLB regulations, the district is not completely following them. Mrs. Patterson said that "choice" does not mean parents can choose from a list of approved schools, but "choice" means they can stay at their neighborhood school that failed AYP or they can choose to be transferred to a school that the district chooses for them based on transportation. Tonight a parent said she is in the Noyes district and her child was a career transfer to Pershing. She completed her AYP school of choice transfer request and listed Pershing as her first choice. But her child was transferred to Coleman because the majority of Noyes children had selected Coleman as their first choice. Mrs. Patterson said all the Noyes AYP requests were sent to Coleman because it was easier to transport them. This parent said she did not need the distric's transportation as she had taken her child to Pershing for the last 6 years. But Patters said even if she could transport her own child to Pershing it was still not allowed, because the district was required to provide the transportation and she may need it in the future, and transporting across town was not feasible.
I found this on the Department of Education's website:
Defining transportation zones. To further facilitate providing transportation, some larger districts have opted to set up defined transportation zones based on geographic location, and offer transportation to families exercising public school choice only in schools within a certain zone or zones. Parents may still be able to choose a school for their child that is outside the designated zone(s), although the district may not provide transportation directly for that student, or may choose to defray only a portion of the costs associated with transporting the student to and from the school.
In defining zones, districts should make decisions based on genuine issues of distance, and should strive to include in each zone a range of transfer options that is as diverse as possible.
From reading the above it is clear to me that this parent can take her child to Pershing. Am I wrong?
I was not impressed with any of the administration tonight. But I commend the board for asking questions of the parents in attendance and actually trying to understand our concerns.
August 24, 2009 at 9:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Orliandor says...
Dilly, I really doubt if the board is very worried about the 5 or 6 incessant whiners who post on this site.
August 24, 2009 at 9:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Orliandor we may be just 5 or 6 so called whiners but we are not lying to the public, we are just posting our opinion as to this mess these folk have created. I see they are up to their old trick tonight telling the parents they could not have their first choice of school because of transportation and the parent is providing transportation.These folks do not even know the laws as well as we the parents have to look them up but you would think they would look and make sure of things before they open their mouths and insert their foot.Also Orliandor just because only 5 or 6 of us so called whinner post here does not mean there is not hundreds of mad parents out there and I am sure there is.You all will see I bet come November people will speak very loudly as they vote down the levy again and it will not be to hurt the children it will because of the people in charge are not trusted and whay give people you do not trust controll over that much money for they can make some more bad decisions.
August 24, 2009 at 10:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Lizzie, are we talking about potential sanctions if the district doesn't do what it's supposed to do, or are we talking about potential law suits in regard to parents not being allowed to do what the law says they can? Is the school board starting to look at the SJSD a little more critically, than they have in the past? What was the reaction of parents in the hall before and after the meeting? Orliander, I wouldn't play the 5 or 6 down too much. Anybody who gets on here, faces criticism, but continues working for their children's benefit, is not kidding around and should not be marginalized nor degraded. With the 5 or 6 irate people, there are a few district people that are also in this mix. To those people I say...If you make the people mad at you, they have the power of the vote and they have the power of the NCLB laws to back THEM. All you have is anonymity and the smugness from coming up with a wise-crack answer. This doesn't get you votes.
August 24, 2009 at 10:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lizzie says...
I'm not sure if it's sanctions or lawsuits. I'm just saying from my research (and I'm not a lawyer),and what I can decipher the district is not following the NCLB federal regulations. If I were this parent I would take this information to the district and demand an explanation.
The overall tone of the parents in the hall was frustration. It appears that Meldody Smith is running the board and the board should be running Melody Smith. The board did ask some questions, but I don't think they asked the tough questions that need to be answered.
August 24, 2009 at 10:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
irishpride says...
Has anyone herd about Humbolt having 59 kids with two teachers in teh 5th grade, while Gene Field has the same amount of students but with 3 teachers. How is this fair?
August 24, 2009 at 10:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
This is just wrong of the district to do this for some underlying reasonn. I would as well want a explaination after fining this information.And If I did not get it I would be on the phone with the state dept of education.And I have said this before as well it does seem as Melody Smith runs the board instead of the board telling her what to do. I thought she answered to them.The more this mess continues the worse it gets. Who do these people think they are god? The board probably asked hand picked question from Melody Smith.They need to be held accountable for all they have done and continue to do.I think all mad parents should show up at the next board meeting and let these people see the fustration they have created for the communitys familys and children.
Now if there are that may children in Humbolt in this class I would think they need to address this issue ASAP.But they have their hands full with the mess they have created that other issues are going on unaddressed it seems.
My beleifs are still some of these administrators need to either resign or be replaced.
August 24, 2009 at 11:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
The district did not create the mess. The taxpayers did (with Mr. Reeder's help). The district must live with it.
mm, again, think this through. If today all the board members and senior administration resigned how long would it take to get the district running again? Special election, if allowed, would take 180 days at least. So they get elected. Now we are at the beginning of March. So the new board has a couple of meetings to decide how to proceed on hiring new people. Easy another six months to hire a new superintendent. So that is October 2010. Then the superintendent has to hire all the additional administrators you want to replace, so Patterson, Huff, Hartigan, etc. are replaced. Easily could take up to a year so that is October 2011. Then how long for them to demonstrate to you they have earned your trust. A year? Two? By that point, the district will be taken over by the state.
Please tell us by name who you want to fire and why.
August 25, 2009 at 11:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
johncourter says...
Dillygent1, thanks for the compliment and I also understand and respect your reasonings behind what you believe in as well. I am not however a proponent of the "the getting what you can get" philsophy. I believe there are more factors affecting this situation then the economy. Justified or not, there appears to be many issues the public has about the school district. My issue with the NCLB mandate is that is not new business, and regardless of how fair or unfair many believe it is, it is a mandate and one that several schools missed. The board, administration, the public who does pay attention, knew these problems existed. The "mess" was created in my view by not enough focus being placed on the issue from all fronts. And once again, a "status quo" solution stayed in play over time that did not help the situation. I believe the sunset clause levy contributed significantly to that outcome in the way of funding to help improve NCLB compliance. It shows, money, whereever it directly or indirectly came from, was put away into a reserve because of the unstability of the future, most notably created by a sunset clause levy. With a permenant levy in place, maybe a different decision would have been made to provide more funding for programs to assist with NCLB compliance. It is one of many reasons I am not for a sunset clause levy now.
NCLB exists, and until the mandate is challenged to the point the argument against it convinces the Federal courts to overturn it, solutions have to be found to get into compliance. I believe the board and administration are good people, they run the district to do what it is supposed to do, educate, but I also believe there are alot of issues out there that need to be addressed and they are not. I believe they should take ownership of this campaign if they truly believe this is the right direction, not a community group. One reason I do not agree with this particular group's direction is the fact it is being overshawdowed by some political representation and that representation did not exist during the January campaign. No political representation existed back then, all elected officials were quiet, now it shows up. In my view, there is something very political driving this, I do not know what it is so I will not speculate there, but I do not agree with the present course of direction. It is tied to something in my view and I do not agree with that.
August 25, 2009 at 12:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
catwoman says...
This may have been posted before. I just ran across it today and thought it was interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSTzLI...
August 25, 2009 at 4:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Again, John, I agree with everything you said, but I do have to say that we will have to agree to disagree on the sunset, largly, because the sunset is the issue before us NOW, not the exclusion of the sunset.I've often felt that the people of the main office feel that their job is to strictly administer only over the teachers, who educate our children. I think they have a responsibility to the public to have a dialog with them. I don't feel this particular administration has the desire to do. I would really like to know what more of the teachers and staff feel. ASSUMING that they are all registered voters of St. Joseph, Mo., I would think that if they really felt ownership of the district plan, then you and I wouldn't be having this conversation now. The building issue would have passed and so would the levy. I heartily agree with you that it is the district that will sell itself--not a task force.
August 25, 2009 at 6:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
johncourter says...
Dillygent1, concur on the sunset issue, we have to agree to disagree and I certainly respect that. And you are correct about the ownership, we would not be having this conversation if that element existed. I will briefly comment on the "Reeder factor." In my view, when it comes to "who created the mess" the "Reeder factor" now should be taken out of the equation. Mr. Reeder was severely hammered for his position back in the winter and spring as well as his group, but what are we presently doing now? The very argument that him and his group supported is now becoming the argument for the solution. So we tear apart Mr. Reeder and his group for having a critical role in killing the bond and permenant levy initiative and then turn around and argue the sunset clause is now the solution. That does not make sense in my view.
August 26, 2009 at 1:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
John, Well said, including the comment about Mr. Reeder. I personally think it was an attitude toward the district and paying taxes,more than it was Mr. Reeder.
August 26, 2009 at 1:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Administrators, I would like to know how many administrators and other SJSD employees live outside our voting boundaries? Just curious.
August 26, 2009 at 1:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
dilly, I know there are employees that live outside the district boundaries as I know there are those who live in outside the district that work for other districts. Not really a major issue.
August 26, 2009 at 4:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
238er, I am SHOCKED by your 4:01 comment. These are VOTERS you are talking about and they SHOULD be voters supporting ALL SCHOOL DISTRICT ISSUES. When you say that it is not necessarily important to live in this district, it sounds to me like it's not necessarily important to pass any of these revenue issues. By the way...don't you think that if an employee earns their money here, that they should pay local taxes (school taxes) and use local merchants, or is it just okay that they don't? Sincerely, Your friend, Dilly
August 26, 2009 at 4:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
dilly, so if an employee's spouse has a business in one of our surrounding communities or they choose to live on a farm they shouldn't be allowed to live where they choose?
Also, on one of these folks were talking about various areas of town not being represented on the board. Well, first someone has to run from that area of town. Second, they have to run a decent campaign. Third, folks have to vote for them. I am more likely to vote for someone I know than not. Odds are I know more people in my area of town than other areas. Therefore odds are more likely that I will vote for someone from my area of town. You shouldn't get a seat on the school board just because no one ran against you.
August 26, 2009 at 5:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
238er, in regard to your 5:03 post...The school district's revenue comes from issues to be voted on. If you cannot count on your own employees to support you, who can you really depend on? If I am drawing a salary from a town, I definitely feel I should be paying taxes and buying in that town. I understand your comment about the spouse's occupation in another city, but I think a lot of it would depend upon if St. Joseph held the primary salary or the other location did. My main point is that levy and bond issues are not floated for kicks. They are floated because the administration sees a need for them. If I am an employer, the size of the St. Joseph School District, I want every eligible voter, voting for me. I think you will find, in every area of town, somebody who, if given a chance, is known in their own community, and would be willing to serve. I doubt very much that some of the members of these communities think they would have any kind of chance, outside their own community, to get elected, IF the selection process remains as it is. I also think it works for the City Counsel. Why wouldn't it work for the school district? Keep in mind that the district is the 3rd largest employer in this city. Even though they may not get paid as well as certain other school districts in the state, for St. Joseph, they're doing pretty well. Shouldn't their money be used to help fund these schools and pay taxes, like they are expecting the rest of the people to do?
August 26, 2009 at 5:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Apple, I agree with most of your points. But my reaction about the comment about living in town...I will repeat...I believe it is you who said how close the tax levy was in the April election. If you didn't say it, others have. If there were enough out-of-town employees to have reversed the election decision,if they had been able to vote, if I were the superintendent, I would be kicking myself. If by chance, there were enough out-of-town employees who could have voted for the bond issue, providing those 2 brand new buildings, I would kick myself again. I am sure the bond issue analogy could be a stretch, but I doubt very much that the tax levy would have been. I will even give you the point that the fire department may be paid more than the school district. Their income, both the fire department and the teachers, comes from your and my tax dollars. We have the Shoppes of North Village and other businesses that I'm sure would much rather see income made locally, be spent locally. I realize this could be considered a civil rights issue, but it is also helping the town, which employees you. If, as a district employee, you live out of town, and still criticize the actions of the town, I don't really think you have much reason to say anything.
August 26, 2009 at 7:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Apple, [re: 8:15 PM] I am not trying to dictate their spending habits. This is up to the local merchants and media to worry about. I am talking about getting a revenue issue passed, that benefits your workplace. There is another comment that I made to you this evening [I think it was in the "magical" article] about a theory I have about St. Joseph. I hope you read it. I don't want to go into it here. The fact is, that the taxpayer has been bashed by you and others for not passing school issues. If I were the superintendent, I would want every eligible voter in the school district to be supporting this issue. If the SJSD employees do not solidly get out behind this issue, there is no reason to expect the rest of us to want to. By not being in the forefront of supporting this issue, they are saying that even though the superintendent SAYS it is important, it may not be. You yourself referred to the below average income in St. Joseph. I personally would like to know that if a part of my dollars go to the school district, that the school district employees are sharing a part of the load,by paying their own taxes toward SJSD. 238er, you still don't sound like Southside St. Jo. Are you from Agency or Faucett????
August 27, 2009 at 9:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
dilly, just what does someone "sound like Southside St. Jo"?
August 28, 2009 at 1:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
238ER,
Well lets just put it this way you do not sound like and true southsider I grew up with. The city and the school district could have care a less about our end of town when I was growing up. I seem to remember people wanting years ago to not be part of the city of st joseph.The city and others always thought about other areas before the southside.So usally people from the southside had not many good things to say about the city goverment or our school admin.I no longer live in the southside of town but will support them unlike Doug Flowers.
August 28, 2009 at 5:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Apple, excellent points. Should a person working in Kansas City pay taxes in Kansas City ? Since I am living in St. Joseph, it is fine with me that those who work in Kansas City are paying taxes in St. Joseph and are spending their money in St. Joseph. If I lived in Kansas City, I know I would have a different opinion. Ever wonder why they have jobs in Kansas City, Apple? Could two of the reasons be that the pay is higher in Kansas City than St. Joseph? Could it be that working conditions are better in Kansas City? In regard to another one of your points... All I can go by are the words of the employees and retirees I have talked to and by a borrowed school district directory of names and addresses of school district employees. Actually, I do have a rough idea of how many out-of-towners work for the SJSD. To be honest with you, I was not going to say it, but if you really want to know here, ask me again and I will tell you. I really was willing to let this issue pass, but the thing that got me started, were the continued comments that it really didn't make any difference how many employees lived within the district, who would be eligible to vote for the bond and tax issues. Do you REALLY want to know?
August 29, 2009 at 7:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
MM, Thanks for answering 238er's question for me. You answered it well. There was a time, if Julia Rupp had decided to secede from the city and become its mayor, very few on the southside would have opposed her. I know you know what I mean.
August 29, 2009 at 7:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Dillygent1,
Yes you are right if Julia would have done this you are correct nobody would have went against her. Theres a lady that knows how to run a business and would make a great school board member.She is a very respected lady and open and knows how to communicate and knows how to get public support.If you work in Kansas City and live in St Joseph you do pay a city tax just like the citizens of Kansas City do every payday.This is also not refundable for the people who pay this and do not live in Kansas City.It is also not refundable to the people who live in Kansas City.
August 29, 2009 at 8:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Apple, According to the 2008-09 School Directory, there were l691 employees in the SJSD. Of those l691 employees, 337 (which is about l9.9%) gave an address other than St. Joseph, Missouri. I'm using numbers I believe you have talked about when I say that there were roughly 5000 people who voted on the issues. The tax levy failed 51 to 49%, roughly l00 votes. That means if 2/3 of those 337 had voted FOR the tax levy, it would have passed. This is not to create villians of those who live out of town, but it does show that when you depend upon an election for revenue, you need everybody possible in your district to vote FOR your side. These 337 could not legally vote in this election no matter which side they were on. My other point was that with over ll,000 children in SJSD, and l691 employees in SJSD, that should have been enough to swamp the roughly 2550 NO votes. I will admit I don't have a full gauge on SJSD, but if they had ALL voted for the school district issues to pass, there is no way it would have been defeated. It is also possible that they would have gotten their new building and we wouldn't be discussing ANYTHING critical of the school district, now.
August 29, 2009 at 9:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple,
I guess you are now calling me a lyer,yes there is a city tax in Kansas City,I could prove this to you in a matter of minutes.I pay this tax every two weeks. It is a city tax that Kansas city has and is deducted from my pay check.Before you speak maybe you should take some of your own advice do your research first.You put your foot in your mouth on this one.
August 29, 2009 at 10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
No apple in St Joseph the city does not have a city tax that is deducted from people pay checks. But if you work in Kansas City this city(Kansas City)has a city tax and it is deducted from your payroll check and it is a percentage of what you make just like federal taxes are and just like states are.This is deducted from my pay checks every two weeks since I get paid every two weeks.What are you missing?
August 29, 2009 at 10:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Apple, what was the turnout for the levy vote?
August 29, 2009 at 10:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple, My point is I live in St Joseph and work In Kansas City and I pay a city tax to Kansas City that is deducted from my paycheck.These tax are not like State and Federal taxes where you file a return and you either get a refund or you owe. these are taxes the city of Kansas city has.Anybody that works in Kansas City MO pay this.Maybe I should send you to City Hall in Kansas City and tell them they have no city tax that is payroll deducted and you will find that they do.
August 29, 2009 at 10:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple,
It say in the deductions City Income Tax.Like I said I can prove this in a matter of minutes.I have questioned this for some time because I felt that since I did not live in Kansas City why did I have to pay this tax and the HR lady which her office is right next to mine tells me this is the way it is and there is nothing she could do about it.I do not know how long it has been since you worked in KCMO but this is the way it is today.This is on the Missouri side not on the Kansas side.
August 29, 2009 at 10:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple, Thank you For apologizing. I appreciate it.
August 29, 2009 at 10:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Apple, my bad. According to the April 8 St. Joseph News-Press, with about 93% of the votes tallied, it was 9,174 against the levy and 9,002 for it, a difference of around 72 votes. I do believe my comment about the 337 non-voters does hold water. I will concede that the bond would have had a problem, what with falling short 976 votes, but, the school district employees with families and school district parents, by virtue of the the their numbers, could have passed it, no matter what others would have done.
August 29, 2009 at 10:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Apple, my bad, again, in regard to my 10:45 post. It was a difference of 172. The difference could still have been made up and surpassed by the non-voters.
August 29, 2009 at 11:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Apple, I'm not blaming the employees for anything. But, I don't think you can underestimate the importance, if you are a school district administrator, to having as many of your co-workers onboard, to support you, as possible. The fact that we have out-of-town employees doesn't bother me as much, if the reason to have them, is to have a quality teaching force, instead of merely going "lean and green." If it is strictly because the best teachers are coming from out of town, that is fine. But they should be aware that come election time, there can be a consequence. An election is a political process. You and I disagree over this a great deal, but the district administration has no acumen for politics.
August 30, 2009 at 2:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NWMOBoy says...
1
September 7, 2009 at 6:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )