Parents at one more local school can request a transfer because it didn't meet No Child Left Behind Act standards, the St. Joseph School District learned Thursday.
Hall Elementary School joined Edison and Noyes elementary schools on the district's list of buildings whose students' MAP (Missouri Assessment Program) test scores fell below federal math and communication arts thresholds. At least 51 parents from Noyes and Edison had requested school transfers by Thursday afternoon.
"Some students require more time to achieve," said Cheri Patterson, associate superintendent of curriculum, instruction and assessment. "These are Title I schools. It's no secret, we all know there's high poverty there."
Ms. Patterson said all three schools have the same curriculum and teachers with similar training and similar access to resources, but she noted 75 percent of those students qualify for the federal free and reduced lunch program.
District officials on Wednesday announced that parents at Edison and Noyes would have the option to choose from among four other schools in the district - Coleman, Eugene Field, Hyde or Pershing. These four are identified for their two consecutive years of meeting the federal expectation.
Then on Thursday, the district received a letter from the Department of Elementary and Secondary Education that said Hall students would have the
option of school choice, as well, because the school didn't make enough gains in communication arts or math. Hall parents, who should receive letters from the district later this week, can select from the same four alternate schools. The district asks for parents to turn in the requests by Aug. 25, or preferably by Aug. 19 so assignments can be made by the start of school.
In Missouri, all categories of students at all schools had to earn 59.2 percent in communication arts and 54.1 percent in math, among other factors, to meet adequate yearly progress standards. Hall students earned 40.3 percent in communication arts and 42.5 percent in math.
Edison received 39 percent in communication arts and 39.8 percent in math, while Noyes garnered a 42.3 percent in communication and 46.8 percent in math.
Nine other elementary schools didn't meet those flat benchmarks, either, but Ms. Patterson said DESE officials had assured them that Hall was the last school this year that would be identified for school choice because of other factors the federal program takes into consideration.
Webster Elementary School, one of the schools that the district closed in its recent redistricting process, would've met the overall AYP standards, with 58.3 percent in communication arts and 67 percent in math, Ms. Patterson said.
High test scores was one of the reasons Georgia Burns, former Webster PTA president, said she highlighted in pleading with the district not to close the school.
"In terms of capacity, we could no longer afford 18 elementary schools," said Steve Huff, district spokesman. "Those decisions weren't based on test scores. They were based on capacity."
As of 11 a.m. Thursday, 26 parents from Noyes and Edison had requested to move their children to different schools. That number rose to 51 by 2:30 p.m. - 34 from Edison, 17 from Noyes.
"Most of the parents asking for transfers right now are not parents who went to that school last year," Ms. Patterson said.
The transfers could pose a capacity problem in an already tight situation. Since the recent redistricting, most schools are at or close to capacity, and the district already was fielding hardship transfer requests before it learned about Hall, Noyes and Edison. Those schools are estimated to have populations of 352, 366 and 436, respectively.
"We have absolutely no choice about school choice," Ms. Patterson said. "If they request school choice, we have to grant that."
In some cases, she said the district may have to exceed capacity or not give parents their first preference. Also, the district may have to look into providing outside trailers for elective classes, such as music or art.
The district estimates it will have to spend an additional $35,000 on two to three more buses to accommodate the new flow of students from the transfers, and bus routes may be tweaked, Mr. Huff said.
Ms. Patterson said the district had intended those Title I funds for services aimed at their most impoverished students.
"Now we must use those same dollars ... and use them for busing," she said.
For more information on the transfers, call a school principal or Deb Cook, coordinator of federal programs, at 671-4000.
Alyson E. Raletz can be reached
at alysonraletz@npgco.com.
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mm1967 says...
Now Hall school students can transfer as well and Mrs Patterson said it herself here in this article most of the transfers so far are from parents that their children did not attend any of these schools that did not met the AYP standards last year. Exactly what I said yesterday.Now they are talking about trailers for these 4 schools these children can transfer to. Now these trailers will have to be bought or leased which is another expense for the district it seems as if this could have been avoided with leaving schools open.I personally do not want any school to fail but now the district is going to be held accountable for the mess they created back in May after the levy failed and will have to answer to the public as I said yesterday.Communication comes in strange ways now the district is going to have to communicate. Now where are they going to get this money for all of these trailers since they have said they are running out of money and they have a dark cloud hanging over their heads?Also if the class sizes grow over the set class size are the going to allow transfer to other school for other parents children for the schools classes are not overcrowded?This continues to create more questions.And before anybody says it the schools are closed get over it well how many transfers and overcrowding of these other schools is it going to take for these people and you know who you are to understand Webster and Neely maybe should have remained open Hall closed and children from Hall could have went to Neely,Parkway and Marktwain and Webster students could have remained in their school this would have help and there would not be as many transfers at this point Which by the way Neely and Webster Met the AYP for last year.The administration and Board created this mess so I want to see how they are going to get out of this one.Maybe some of these folks should turn in the resination letters for we can have some compentent people take over downtown that can look at things and make good decisions.This is not going to help the district cause come November.
August 14, 2009 at 5:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
stjoenative says...
the money might be available if they reduce the number of administrators. Instructional coaches serve no purpose that I ever saw.
August 14, 2009 at 6:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ksmith says...
This is really the most rediculous thing I have ever saw. School starts in less than a week and they are still changing bus routes. Not to mention that 9 schools did not meet the guidelines. If they would spend more time focusing on education and less time on money they cry for, this would not have happened. Most of last year all the focus was on the levy and bond, then it went to what schools to close and how to redistrict, then the focus went to if they should ask for the levy. Lets focus on what it will take to teach the children properly. Surely someone has the power to ask for some resignations for this absurd mess. Everyone says to think of the children but, how are they when they have the biggest mess going on all because they wanted to show everyone they could close whatever schools they wanted. I dont think they are saving any money when they knew the mess it would create.
August 14, 2009 at 7:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
saturnlady says...
I don't understand why Mrs. Patterson continues to beat up Webster. Yes, Webster did not do good this year, but overall status is MET from DESE. By the way, isn't Webster still No 5 school on the list in the whole district even this year they did not do good due to closing? Give me a break.
August 14, 2009 at 7:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
i almost feel sorry for mr. huff, the "point man" for the Capacity mantra.
IS ANYONE ELSE SICK OF ECONOMICS OVER EXCELLENCE?
August 14, 2009 at 7:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
earth to apple. this happened in a year when the district had the exact same funding which the task force is going to campaign for, and had a $35 million dollar reserve.
Fully Fund Our Schools, and use academically and statistically significant studies to back up your decision making process.
August 14, 2009 at 8:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ksmith says...
Apple, this is not the first year these schools have failed. It is the second. So, when they were fully funded they were still failing. It has nothing to do with funding. Looks to me like they hoarded a bunch of money they should have been spending on education and not worrying about politics.
August 14, 2009 at 8:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
ksmith,
You could have not put it and better or to the point, they were fully funded in these years. And in 2 years they did not evidently focus on the issues they had the year before to correct the issue so now they are in a pickle.
August 14, 2009 at 8:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yougottabekiddingme says...
I for one am wondering that if it is true that money would have fixed this problem, as Apple states, would our schools have met the AYP standards had our district used part of that 35 million dollar reserve to educate our children (not hire another administrator) instead of saving it??
I assert that this BOE and this administration (with the exception of Mr. Snethen) has their priority's wrong. I would like to know what types of cuts the administration has taken due to the failure to extend the operating levy. Anyone know the answer to this question? Did they place the entire burden of the cuts on our children?
Another question I have is WHY on earth isn't the NP asking these questions?????
August 14, 2009 at 8:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gladimgone says...
It is suspicious that these schools have results that are so low. The reason may not be all on the schools, though.
Has anyone considered the possibility that some responsibility falls to the parents of these kids, and yes, the students themselves?
August 14, 2009 at 8:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
grannyb says...
Funny how this works my grandchildren fall in the hall school district but has always been allow to go to lindberg because they come to my house in that district after school. we do not want them to attend hall school so we called about the no child left behind transfer we were told that they have to go to pershing and put the transfer and then if there is room they can go there. do i not understand right that since hall does not meet the testing guidelines they are not required to go there. Thanks melody for messing with my grandchildrens education the most important part of there lives
August 14, 2009 at 9:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
I thought that the district had to let these children transfer what is this they are telling grannyb that if there is room at this school they can go there. It seams as if they are up to something with telling people this for they will not transfer their children.Grannyb they have to let you go to one of the school they are takingtransfers and I believe they have to buss the children to and from school.
August 14, 2009 at 9:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
8342 says...
Bottom line,if a parent is not actively involved in their child's education, it will be much more difficult for them to be successful. Both my children attended SJSD and have been very successful, but I didn't expect the teacher to do all the work. Parents have got to get involved.
August 14, 2009 at 9:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ForestG says...
Unfortunately, it appears that Ms. Patterson needs help with her public speaking skills as they relate to handling this mess. Perhaps they should ask the News Press for a list of questions up front and then think of good answers before speaking (HMMN, they do that at school board meetings, don't they??)
In a previous article, she warned parents that if they transfer their kid(s), they would go from 1-5 student/teacher ratio to 1-25. Now she says that "it's no secret" they have high poverty rates in those schools. So....should those schools have a 3-5 ratio? Should you keep your kids in those schools when 1-5 isn't good enough just to pass the test. 6 of 10 need to pass Reading and 5 of 10 need to pass math to have satisfied AYP. "Some kids need more time". They start testing in 3rd grade. They're only at a particular school for 3 years of MAP test taking. Some of those that failed are now at the steps of the feeder middle school. Do those schools have a 1-5 ratio......NO...the district chose to not subject it's middle and high schools to Title 1.
Pretty scary thought. In my opinion, the school administration should begin to start publicly documenting that these schools are not just passing kids along to the next grade. What are the test scores for "normal" schooling??? Wouldn't you want to document that to the public to insure the kids are learning SOMETHING rather than coming up with lame reasons as to why the kids aren't passing a MAP test.
The MAP test is a good test. If you're interested on how it was developed, go to the DESE website.
Last interesting thought.....DESE made an initial "mistake" by not including Hall on the fail list. They corrected their own mistake a day later. The school district knew Hall didn't pass as they were given results at least a week prior. Had DESE not caught their mistake in a timely fashion, would the school district bring it to their attention? Reminds me of my prodigal son.....
August 14, 2009 at 9:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Brennen says...
Parents and the students themselves need to be held accountable for this. Forget elementary students, 10% of Lafayette students met the math score? 10% of the students? Wake up people. It's not the test. Education needs to be a top priority for families, not football, baseball, and dance. We have a whole section in the newspaper on sports, not academics. What's more important here?
August 14, 2009 at 9:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scrafler says...
The school district will over crowd the other school with transfers, then cry we need newer and bigger schools. This is the next step step in the propaganda on getting tax money for the new schools. Which wont make a lick of differance if the parents dont get involved in thier childrens education. The principles and teachers need to communicate with parents way more!!!!! The kids are the pawns in the SJSD plan on getting a new school built.
August 14, 2009 at 9:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
apmastrangelo says...
How many remember the repeated criticisms during the recent months that the district was failing to optimize its funding for the betterment of the educational process.
Education is about setting priorities more than anything else and it appears that the SJSD has not kept focus on the area needing the greatest support; those doing the teaching.
Everyone should reflect on what the MAP scores in this district really mean and how the district is attempting to rationalize their shortcomings.
August 14, 2009 at 10:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
scrafler, yeah right and the district has black helicopters they use to spy on you.
What I find to be an interesting problem is that many Coleman transfers got redistricted/revoked back to Noyes and now have the right under NCLB to transfer back to Coleman. Same applies to Webster/Edison. I wonder how many of those that are seeking the transfer never attended the school in question at all.
August 14, 2009 at 10:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
I'm still interested in the Neely scores, which I noticed were NOT included on the district's chart today, but not for the reason you may think. I am interested because the Neely principal got an administrative post downtown. I would be interested in how much expertise she is going to show to the other schools. As far as the transfer, the article says that those 4 schools had met expectations for 2 years. That's why the transfer has to be to one of those 4 schools. I still think the test is grossly overrated. For those who talk to their children about "the test," how many of your children actually like to take the test? I understand that it is a very long and tedious process and then the school district turns around and gives another long and hard test, of their own, shortly thereafter.I actually feel sorry for the young people having to take the dumb things. My next concern is... what happens when young people are faced with tests that just might be an indicator or determiner of their future success [such as a college scholarship or even college admittance] ? Are they so fatigued that they can't do well ? What about course content tests? Why are they even necessary in addition to the MAP tests? What do they, and the MAP tests, cost the taxpayers, to give? How do they affect the drop-out rate? I would like some answers please, from those who know. Newspress, how about a COMPLETE chart, which shows scores from both Neely and Webster.
August 14, 2009 at 10:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Brennen says...
I know alot of children who ARE passed on to the next grade even though they FAILED. It wasn't that the teachers or school district who promoted them, IT'S THE PARENTS who have the last say, not the school. So quit laying all the blame on the schools. What parent would want their child to advance to a harder level if they couldn't perform at a lower level? I guess it's the same people who blame the teachers for their childs failure. It's can't be ALL up to the schools.
August 14, 2009 at 10:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
we must also not equate poverty with a lack of parental involvement. for instance, humboldt, the Oldest building, with one of the Highest ratios of low SES students met AYP. often parents who are working at "power" jobs and have a high standard of living to "maintain" have even less time to spend with their children than lower/middle class parents do. there are multiple variables involved in this nearly perfect storm.
the district has an excellent program in "parents as teachers". i wonder what the rate of participation is within the population?
August 14, 2009 at 10:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
saturnlady says...
dillygent1, here is the compete list:
http://dese.mo.gov/planning/profile/a...
August 14, 2009 at 10:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Thanks, Saturnlady. I plan on looking this up and I hope the Newspress does too, as I'm sure others would also be interested.
August 14, 2009 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
My computer didn't bring up the site, Saturnlady. But thanks for trying. I hope the Newspress will look into this.
August 14, 2009 at 10:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cgrable1 says...
I think Ms. Patterson should be fired! Teachers can either teach or they can't don't blame the students. I'm sure this is Bush's fault too!
August 14, 2009 at 10:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Orliandor says...
It's not the teachers, administrators, Board of Education, students, nor parents that are messed up here. It's NCLB.
Get a grip, folks. This is NOT the end of the world.
August 14, 2009 at 10:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Brennen says...
Pull your head out of the sand. A simple test that most children should be able to pass is not asking too much. Are you saying that it's asking too much for more than 10% of Layfayette's students to know math?! I don't agree with the sanctions of the NCLB, but I don't think asking for standards is too much either.
Why should Cherrie Patterson be fired? Doesn't any blame rest on these students or their families? Do you know how hard those teachers work to get these kids up to an average level???
August 14, 2009 at 11:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
as i have said, orliander, NCLB often becomes a Political football. you have made your position on president bush abundantly clear in these comments. i believe that colors your opinion of NCLB as a flawed legislative effort from the beginning. ( ps, i do not consider bush to have been any better than a c- president). the fact is that some version of nationalized testing to provide parity in education across the country has been suggested by every administration for generations.
our superintendent stated at the press conference that she believes the MAP test to be a "good" test.
August 14, 2009 at 11:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yougottabekiddingme says...
Orliandor - The only problem with NCLB is that it is not funded by the feds - they expect the districts to pick up the slack. There is nothing wrong with a system that uses benchmarks to make sure our kids are learning what they should be learning. Makes up for times when school districts aren't looking out for the kids best interest.
August 14, 2009 at 11:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fanofsports says...
Sure glad my child goes to a private school. When they list in the paper the schools top ACT scores does anyone ever wonder why the private schools are always higher than the public? Maybe it's because they aren't top heavy in administration and they focus all their money on education.
August 14, 2009 at 11:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sidamo says...
Suppose the district had $500,000,000 in the bank, more operating money than they could possibly hope for and brand new schools for the entire district... What evidence is there that the exact same students with the same parents in the same homes would suddenly outperform? Aside from cheating or teaching to the test , there may not be a way to meet Ted Kennedy's NCLB utopia.
August 14, 2009 at 11:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
chara says...
heritage you make a good pont. my children attened humbolt some yrs. ago. ms.patterson was the principle then. her and the staff were some of the most careing pepole you ever wanted to meet. a true credit to the city. a lot of credit has to go to the teachers in that school.
was a majority of children from lower income homes you bet. when you bus kids from other parts of town with low income your school is going to have a higher avg. of free lunches. according to the forms you fill out every yr. not to hard to get free or reduced lunches. credit those teachers in those schools with passing scores. shows being lower income doesn't make you dumb.
August 14, 2009 at 11:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
go4it50 says...
I'll have to go back and read, but I liked this paragraph:
"Some students require more time to achieve," said Cheri Patterson, associate superintendent of curriculum, instruction and assessment. "These are Title I schools. It's no secret, we all know there's high poverty there."
For shame for the kids in high poverty areas. No wonder they have low self-esteem and not willing to meet potential when the people in charge have no faith that THEY COULD HAVE A BRAIN!
Noyes is in a high poverty area? Wow! Who woulda 'thunk'?
Maybe 'someone' needs to get off their high horse and recognize kids for what they are and not their families net worth and how much their parents home cost. So the richer the area the richer the brain? hmmm......
August 14, 2009 at 11:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
matt says...
You have to educate the kids that walk in your building regardless of ability. It is a no win situation for the District.
It is like coaching a ball team that has limited abilities. You can do a good job( as I believe most of the teachers do) and still have a losing season.
August 14, 2009 at 12:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sidamo says...
go,
I abhor people who love to categorize other humans.
August 14, 2009 at 12:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
HarryPotter says...
Kudos to the Webster students and staff for their MAP scores! What a shame they had to close!
August 14, 2009 at 12:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
Neely results:
http://dese.mo.gov/planning/profile/a...
Results are:
Comm. 60.2% (59.2 target)
Math 69.1% (54.1 target)
These results include a factor called growth. In contrast the Field results do not include this factor. Odd, the Edison results show it passing in one area.
go, studies to show that the higher your education the higher your income in general sense. Also, generally, the higher the parent's educational level, the higher performing the child in education. These are time tested generalities and before you jump my case pointing out the exceptions to the rule, I admit there are EXCEPTIONS!!! One of my classmates from grade school through high school was so poor they couldn't afford the dirt to be dirt poor. He succeeded wildly as he was brilliant. He got a college scholarship, etc. and now has his own engineering firm in a big city.
August 14, 2009 at 12:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
grannyb says...
I would like to share an address with you governor.mo.gov/contact/ This is where i went to get a letter to the governor about the mess this school district is in and about checking the qualifying skills of the people who have made all the zoning and closing school decisions and the decisions not to utilize the 32 million to fix the schools we have i know that is alot more then they need to fix webster and neely. If they would have kept them up in the first place instead of letting them fall apart and then wanting new schools we would not be in this position. And please spare me it is not the poverty level children who cause the normal ware and tare on the building. Please parents get more involved then the st joseph news press and write the governor and anyone else you know that might be able to help our kids. I dont care what amount of money you have or how nice your house is ALL OF OUR CHILDREN DESERVE TO BE TREATED BETTER THAN ANIMALS BEING UPROOTED FROM THEIR SCHOOLS AND FRIENDS. And they all deserve a good education.
August 14, 2009 at 1:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
granny, it does no good to write to the Governor if you don't understand the facts.
First, Webster was closed not due to the maintenance of the building, but due to the fact that the population had shifted and there were too few children in the neighborhood to attend the school. Most of the students were transfers from outside it's district.
Second, on the zoning/closing question. What wasn't qualified and why not? The administration made the recommendations but the duly elected Board made the decision. Were any of these folks not qualified and why?
Third, Neely was closed in part because it was functionally obsolete. Please explain how maintenance dollars can be used to add land, etc. to an old building.
Fourth, all children cause wear and tear on the buildings. Income has nothing to do with it. Buildings wear out.
August 14, 2009 at 1:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
THANK YOU, heritage.....I'M SO glad you mentioned that poverty does NOT make a poor student....only poor economics in the home. Many poorer parents are very interested in their children's education, and work with them. There are parents that have great jobs, and a good income and they're not involved at all. I'd also like to point out that the age of the building has nothing to do with the learning success of a child.
This comes down to parental failure....plain and simple. I am SO SICK of hearing people criticize the teachers and staff for these failures, or talk about how if we'd just passed the levy, this wouldn't have happened.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! Why is it we can't hold the parent's of these children who don't meet the goal responsible?? I saw someone (don't remember who it was) post a great idea....if your kid isn't doing well, make the parents attend parenting classes. MADE IT A FEDERAL MANDATE!!!
If the problem isn't old buildings (and it's NOT), not bad teachers (again....it's NOT), not bad leadership (NOT...at least at the school level), or not money (that one is laughable), and you CERTAINLY can't blame the kids...at least not totally....then you're left with only one place to lay the blame. Squarely at the feet of the parents. SCHOOL IS NOT A BABYSITTER!! A parent is not just a loudmouthed, foulmouthed adult who can scream at a kid and make them succeed. Good parents understand kids learn because they're ENCOURAGED to learn....good parents make learning fun and exciting. They teach their kids how to WANT to learn new things. They teach by example. Too many parents have forfeited their role as instructor.
I am SO tired of this stupid debate!!! Blame the REAL responsible party....the absentee parent.....
August 14, 2009 at 2:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
Hmmmm....one negative mark. That must be one of the parent's I'm talking about.
August 14, 2009 at 2:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
terrebatu says...
Pops-So your alright with the federal government dictating how individuals conduct themselves as parents, but will not tolerate the government getting involved in health care? Sounds like you are talking out both sides of your mouth, cant have it both ways pops. But I'm sure you will think of ways to wiggle out of it.
That is my beef with people like you, it's alright for the government to get involved with issues that you find important eg; abortion, gay marriage etc, but when they want to try and tackle other issues you throw your arms up and cry foul.
August 14, 2009 at 2:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
pops. i do want to highlight the fact that in this city so Many children are in households who have NO role model .... in their parents, their grandparents, or their great-grandparents. i am able to see the usefulness of the program "parents as teachers" , and do not subscribe to the converse..... "teachers as parents".
BUT, parenting and Everything Which It Entails is not a trait which one is born with. as i see it, there must be a firewall built in the short term in this city to stop the spread of generational cluelessness in areas which most people would never think to have to instruct someone.
i live next to, and across from two rentals which are "housing qualified". about 50% of the tenants who live in these units are poor, but not poor parents. the other half are entirely beyond any level of even the minimum expectations in terms of being parents. these adults never lower their voices below a shout. they demean their children, and argue to the point of shoving and slapping with their adolescent children. every other word out of their mouths is the f-bomb, and their children do it, also. their younger children get locked out of the house on a very busy residential street. i have seen the older kids walk around the back of the house and flagrantly light up a reefer less than 25 feet from me when i am working in my garden. the house is a trash heap. the garbage is overflowing. the kids throw trash on my property right in front of their parents, in fact the parents think it is just fine to empty their garbage and ashtrays right into my property...... oooops. they sleep on bare matresses, and live in utter squalor. most have never used a vacuum cleaner. there are no books, no educational skills, and no goals beyond getting through the day.
these kids have NO chance of ever entering life with any concept of how an average person would choose to conduct themselves. in these instances, it is becoming a necessity to intervene, and to do so very early in these children's little lives, or there will Never be an end to the sub-culture of generational poverty in st jo.
August 14, 2009 at 3:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sjmom says...
agree with pops whole heartedly.
August 14, 2009 at 3:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sidamo says...
Ruby Payne, key speaker at last year's beginning-of-the-year rah-rah District kickoff, said that, generally, people live in poverty because they choose to. Similarly most middle-class have no aspirations to be filthy rich, and aren't making any steps to move that direction. Poor are just as used to their system/way of doing things as midclassers. The leap from poor to middle class is as hard as the leap from middle to rich.
http://www.rethinkingschools.org/arch...
August 14, 2009 at 3:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
You're so right, heritage....a poor person doesn't necessarily make a poor parent. However, I can't see that we should let these people skate. These poor parents need to be held responsible.
terrebatu, your rant was an attempt to compare apples and froglegs......when you can discuss this in a logical manner, come back....
As for the other "negatives".....I can see at least 4 poor parents are at least capable of reading the newspaper!!
August 14, 2009 at 3:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ForestG says...
For those blaming the parent and/or kid and not the school district, I do not completely disagree.
Please also do NOT disagree with those parents who do not want their kids at the schools where these non-caring parents/students attend should they then request a transfer at this time.
Either way, parents or school district, the schools are failing. The zebra is either black with white stripes or white with black stripes but it's still a zebra that's noticeably limping.
I do feel a change at the top is in order. Fire them? No. Re-position them back where their strengths are? Yes.
The good ol boy, er girl, system of advancement is not proving to be successful.
The time for fresh leadership may be in order and vital in renewing the public trust.
No, I'm not talking just about the band aide levy election forthcoming, either.
August 14, 2009 at 3:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
It is time for parents to take responsibility for their children. If your kids are failing in school....IT'S YOUR FAULT!! Don't blame the teachers, the administration, the building, the neighborhood, your genes, the other kids, the lack of funds, etc, etc, etc, etc.
It's the PARENT'S responsibility to find ways to make kids WANT to learn....to instill in them a love of reading, exploration and curiosity. It's the PARENT'S responsibility to ensure they do their homework, and that they understand their assignments. It's the PARENT'S responsibility to make sure the kids are rested, fed and clothed, and to make sure they get to school. It's the PARENT'S responsibility to teach the kids they should be respectful in their interaction with their teacher.
Funny....am I the only one to see the pattern here?????
August 14, 2009 at 4:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
grannyb says...
238er these decisions were made very quickly due to us not voting in more taxes. Also it was said that these two schools were closed due to the buildings not being in good enough shape. Tell me why if there is nothing wrong with the school why would we close it and overcrowd other schools instead of using it for part of the rezoning to keep from overcrowded classes. makes no sense. Why would we so desperately need new schools if there was nothing wrong with these school. The rezoning was not thought out and some of the schools were going to be overcrowded before the test results came back.
As far as our duly elected superintendent my opinion is that she really pulled the wool over alot of peoples eyes.
August 14, 2009 at 4:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
Nope....I disagree apple. It was the district's decision to remove the sunset clause that caused the failure....and you KNOW it. Do we REALLY need to go over this again??
Besides, they were planning to close those schools NO MATTER WHAT....even if the levy passed. Of course, the HOPE was that both the levy AND the bond issue would pass, and they'd have money to build NEW schools.
Ever hear the old adage...."Don't count your chickens before they hatch?" Perhaps the district leadership should have learned that a long time ago.
The current situation has NOTHING to do with the levy failure. Let's not rehash that old issue. I think we can agree that this NCLB issue is a horse of a different color altogether. Kids don't fail on their own. They fail because their parents failed THEM.
August 14, 2009 at 5:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
terrebatu says...
Pops-YOUR the one that brought up the comparison, not me. Or did you forget about this post?
Posted by POPS on August 14, 2009 at 12:13 p.m.
Again....as I mentioned in another thread....this "Federal mandate" was created by the SAME EXACT PEOPLE who are attempting to push through a "Federal Health Mandate"......
Does it make you comfortable knowing that impossible goals are being set for St. Joe by elitists in Washington DC?
And I'm being illogical?
August 14, 2009 at 6:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
8342 says...
thank you pops for spelling it out clear and simple....I might add that NCLB is a disaster.....schools need to be locally run.....what does Washington DC know about Noyes Elementary or Field for example???......besides scores posted on a sheet of paper.
August 14, 2009 at 6:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
pops. if you don't know that you are hopeless, then how do you instill hope?
you completely fail to grasp the fact that there is an entire portion of the population which does not have even the slightest clue of what parenting is. they have never seen it, felt it, or been taught it.
August 14, 2009 at 7:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
238er,
Simple question for you and remember the district opened Neely and Hall schools up for us to see the condition of both schools. So the question for you is which one of these school are in better condition in your opinion?Another question is which school Hall or Neely is more obsolete?Neely met and Hall did not and now are able to transfer so if Hall had closed and Neely remained open what would have this done for the issue the district faces today?
Now if Webster was open what would this have done for the issues the district faces today?
August 14, 2009 at 9:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
grannyb says...
apple you should not insinuate that people dont care because a lot of us do care and another tax hike could really hurt some people. Its very hard to pay the bills and house payments and feed the children for those who live paycheck to paycheck. Alot of people feel that if you live paycheck to paycheck you dont care, your poverty level, your children have less of a chance to learn ect... But some people beleive it or not do work and are just at a payscale where they dont make enough for extras (including tax) but make to much for any help. Those are the people caught in the middle and not all of us smoke or drink or gamble so next time lets not just assume that we dont care about our children because quite frankly my kids are my life and it takes me 2 jobs to keep up with the high cost of living right now and quite frankly i cant afford more tax. Maybe the school board could dip into their reserve and spend a little of that on the kids since thats what it is really for
August 15, 2009 at 8:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reggie says...
grannyb I totally agree people are in tight situations right now, but the levy would not have made your taxes go up, it is something you were already paying. And before you throw the whole "sunset clause/forever tax" at me, you are and will always be paying taxes. So voting no on something that you already paid, didn't make sense to me. And now that the district has done what they said people are still in an uproar.
mm1967 you obviously have all the answers don't you? They should have closed Hall and left Neely since they passed and the Hall kids could have gone to Neely, right? And if they'd have left Webster open and closed Noyes, those kids could have went to Webster right? Then why is the district only sending transfer kids to 4 schools, all of which passed for the past 2 years? I don't think Webster and Neely would have been options to transfer to, unless the passed for the past 2 years. We would still be in somewhat of the same situation, still transfering and overcrowding to 4 schools.
August 15, 2009 at 8:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
sidamo, the link you posted is a critical essay written by an academic who completely misses the point of payne's methodology............
August 15, 2009 at 8:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
falcon says...
Has anyone looked to what may happen next year, given the test scores at some of the schools? This nightmare may be just beginning.
August 15, 2009 at 11:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
falcon, this is why you should look to the district attempting to consolidate to fewer and fewer title one schools.
the real catch22 in this is the student populations at the non-title schools which did not meet AYP. no federal funding and no transfer option.
August 15, 2009 at 11:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freedom says...
"Ms. Patterson said all three schools have the same curriculum and teachers with similar training and similar access to resources, but she noted 75 percent of those students qualify for the federal free and reduced lunch program."
There are two things that caught my attention in this statement. First, why is the federal free and reduced lunch program an indicator of academic achievement? Second, if all these schools are utilizing the same curriculum and teachers with similar training and similar access to resources, could it be a possibility that the curriculums and teacher training are failing to reach the potential of these students? Everyone learns differently. Is it possible that given the background of these kids, maybe their learning styles differ from kids who are fortunate enough to have more in life and are exposed to more opportunities to learn?
I am assuming teachers can only utilize the curriculum they are provided; however, can training be provided to these teachers to creatively utilize this curriculum to fit the learning styles of different populations? Why are these kids being forced into cookie cutter molds and placed in a position that perpetuates failure for them? I am guessing there is a wealth of knowledge and talent hiding in these kids. We just need to find the right resources to bring these to light.
Mr Huff said this decision was not due to test scores but rather to economics, yet the reporter highlighted test scores. Mrs. Patterson says overcrowding is going to become a significant issue with this move and funds targeted for educational purposes are now going to be utilized for trailers and bussing. Tell me please someone, if the concern is actually the academic achievement of the kids identified in this article, how is diverting this funding to closing 3 schools and overcrowding others by moving the kids a benefit and how does this help these kids academically? Does overcrowding foster higher standards of learning? I admit, I'm confused.
August 15, 2009 at 12:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
238er (re: 8-14-09 at l:32 PM) In your post you said that Neely was "functionally obsolete." What does "functionally obsolete" mean? What made Neely so functionally obsolete, but Hall up-to-date? [No Apple, I'm not trying to reopen Neely] Pops (re: 8-14-09 at 2:28) relating to your comment about parents being mandated to help their children...CAN all parents help their children? CAN all parent read, write, spell, and do math at a level which CAN help their children? CAN all parents pass the MAP test, as so much is geared toward it? Your comment, about mandates, smacks of socialism to me. What is your opinion of Obama's healthcare plan? Heritage (re: 8-14-09 at 3:17 PM) Agree with you on everything. Sidamo (re: 8-14-09 at 3:33 PM)In regard to your reference to Ruby Payne, it sounds like everybody ought to aspire to be President, or at least a senator, and BY ALL MEANS DON'T BE BORN INTO THE MIDDLE CLASS. Don't go into law enforcement or fire prevention, or military, or even....gasp...EDUCATION. Who's going to do those things, Sidamo? Those are middle rung positions, which are really pretty good to have in a community, don't you think? I always think of the saying which I've always equated with George W. Bush: He got money the old fashioned way...He inherited it. I do understand that he was a good cheerleader, though. I also understand he got into college the old-fashioned way--his daddy used his connections.
August 15, 2009 at 1:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Freedom, do we dare use the term, "individual differences?" Whatever happened to the old days of schools getting involved in individual differences and creativity? That's what happens when school districts go for mandates. I would hope a lot of teachers are getting tired of not being allowed to be very creative. Being boxed in isn't very inspirational.
August 15, 2009 at 1:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
dilly, first they had to make a choice between Neely and Hall. I do not know why Hall was chosen but I'm sure the decision was based on facts.
In real estate this definition is often used: A loss in value due to reduced desirability and usefulness of a structure because its design and construction have become obsolete; loss due to a structure's becoming old-fashioned, not in keeping with modern needs. In other words, the building no longer meets the modern needs of education. Recall that when it was built there was no handicapped children in the building we did not have school lunches, etc., then again we did not have integrated schools. Things like the internet were not even a consideration.
August 15, 2009 at 2:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Grannyb, you are talking to a brick wall with apple it is a waste of your time but good luck anyway I agree with all you have said.
Reggie you seem to miss my point about Neely and Webster and Hall Nowhere did I mention closing any other shcool than Hall and if the other 2 which met there would be no transfers of Hall Students or the Webster students. Noyes would have had a few transfers and Edison would of had a few transfers and Hall would have been closed it does not take a rocket scientist to see that Hall was in worse shape than Neely.What I said was Hall students could have been sent to Neely, Parkway and Marktwain this is 3 schools. By doing this they would not have as many transfers and would have just closed one school.Now they are talking about trailers at these 4 schools students can transfer to do you not think this is not going to cost money.So what is the difference keeping a couple of schools open and closing one and not having to buy trailers.You missed my point. Now do I have all of the answers no I just seem to think this would have not created as much of a issue as what the district is going to have because of these 3 school for not having met for 2 years.Not to mention the cost of bussing children that transfer to these 4 schools.These are just my opinions and I believe it would have been a better solution that what is going on right no the district had to know this was a possibility when they were closing these school and had to know they would have alot of transfers.And yes Apple I think Neely and Webster should reopen and Hall should be closed this would have caused less of a mess than the district is in now but I also know it is to late to do this so the district has created a massive problem for themselfs and are going to have to deal with it and it is going to cost them more now then keeping a couple of schools open and only closing one. As falcon stated above has anybody thought what will happen next year it could get worse.
August 15, 2009 at 5:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reggie says...
mm - waving the white flag, I give you seem to have all the answers. I did not miss your point, it sounded to me that was your point, I guess not. I know you did not talk of closing a 2nd school, but like it or not listen to them or not, the district said they WOULD close 2 schools. I was simply putting your scenerio to work with what I knew we were told. And here's something to chew on, regardless of knowing these schools failed a year ago, why should the district assume they would again? Shouldn't they take pride in their students/staff and "assume" they would do better? Btw mm did you tour the 2 schools? Did you see the mold issue at Neely? I know I wouldn't want my kids attending a school filled with mold, it's just not safe.
And because I feel this conversation is going nowhere this will be my last post.
FYI mm - "the district has created a massive problem for themselfs" - the word is themselves, where did you attend school?
August 15, 2009 at 7:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Reggie,
First you state you would not want your children to attend a school full of mold then I hope your children do not go to Hall as well as they have water problems and have to replace cieling tiles every week this was on KQTV Mold at Neely? Where? And yes I looked at both schools.By the way I stand corrected I did not spell themselves correctly and I attended Benton High School if you must know.And also my point is they should have not closed 2 schools and they would not be having the issues that the next few weeks will cause and cost.
Reggie you and I do not have to agree we are all entitled to our own opinions. Have a good night.
August 15, 2009 at 8:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
reggie, while it is tempting, becoming the grammar police is just not productive.
i type in all lower case on here. i make grammar, syntax, and typo/spelling errors. when you resort to taking swipes at participants on the basis of imperfections in their "speech" you dilute your argument.
actually, the district did NOT say that they would close neely. the mantra was, over and over, webster and noyes. it was only after the levy/bond failed that the district made the decision to close neely.
others have said they were going away ......... be careful what you promise. in fact i wasn't aware that the comments section here was meant to be "productive". usually it is simply a place for readers to connect and shoot the breeze........
August 15, 2009 at 8:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Although I appreciate proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation, because it helps me to understand, more clearly, what is presented here, I find it much more important and enlightening to concentrate on content. 238er, if your definition of "functionally obsolete," is used, it would seem to me that most of the school district buildings in St. Joseph would be obsolete, because practically all of them were built before the computers were there, and most were not set up for handicap issues. Relating to the wiring for computers, the school district said long ago that all the schools were wired for computers. I am still concerned, because in earlier comments, on earlier articles, which I have read, there is mold in currently used buildings. Most notable are Hall and Skaith. I think the school district should do something about it.
August 15, 2009 at 11:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goobentrot says...
These comments seem to associate childrens neighborhoods, socioeconomics, and age of their schools to their success in life,wereas in direct contrast I believe that children with a productive life are a direct result of the moral standards and a direct positive influence from parents are the direct result of productive citizens.
August 16, 2009 at 12:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
It would be nice to think that all children are deeply loved at home. It isn't that way for all children. Some have parents who cannot or will not fulfill their children's needs. This is where, in years past, teachers played such an important role. They became that significant person in a child's life,and they helped that need to be met. One complaint that I hear so often when I talk to teachers, who have taught for a long time, is that they miss those days when they felt like they could truly make a difference in children's lives. They got into the job because they cared for children. Now that they are faced with NCLB, they find they discover that they are "off task" and risking their jobs, if they dare to be that person. They feel as if they are being reduced to impersonal test-giving machines. One of my biggest pet peeves of the school district is their usage of the word, "Kiddos". I guess I am on the wrong side of the generation gap, because when I was younger, a "kid" was either a "billy goat," or it meant that you were in big trouble. And, even though it will not change the temper of the dialogue in any shape or form, I would like to hear the district's higher-ups refer to the children as "students," "young people," or even call them by their names...just anything but "Kiddos". It reaks of disrespect.
August 16, 2009 at 8:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
OMG, i cannot stand the KIDDOS moniker.
August 16, 2009 at 8:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Apple, Sorry we have your bowels in an uproar. Have any KIDDOS been bothering you today??? If young people are kiddos, what does that make us older people? Daddo's and Mommo's and Oldo's???? Maybe what you need is one of your chocolate frosted donuts.
August 16, 2009 at 9:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
...obviously the donut shop was closed when you got there, Apple OKiddo. Bowels still in an uproar. Gotta admit, I did laugh at your last post.
August 16, 2009 at 10:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
On that note, I understand that prunes at breakfast do wonderful things for the disposition. Goodnight, Apple, Kiddo.
August 16, 2009 at 10:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
dilly, you are a PIP!!!!! or, should i say an 0'pip???
oatmeal. does a body good.
August 16, 2009 at 10:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
http://www.dhss.mo.gov/FoodCode/
this appears to be dated, but certainly more in depth than your little multiple choice option.......
August 16, 2009 at 10:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Apple,
Before you start to put words in my mouth as you did in your post above where you said I only care about my cildren well you are wrong.
First my children do not go to any of these schools that have been closed or schools that have not met.I have said in several and let me repeat that for you hear it several post this is about our communitys children and the district has messed with 1400 childrens lifes so go back and read.Now they will be trying to figure out how they are going to stop people from transfering from these schools which did not met, Hall, Edison, Noyes.Why do you think everybody is trying to spread Hate. You seem to think that the district has done nothing to cause all of these problems and the public is all to blame wake the hell up and as I have said to you several times go out listen to the public and it will not take you very long to get the picture.I see you are not on here to much during the day anymore is that because school is getting ready to start and you are at work in your job at a school or back to work for the school year at the district offices.Apple I am gald other people are getting you in a uproar and it is just not me. I will take my selfish self to bed since this is what you believe I am. Just one last question for you.You said in a above post that nobody wants a solution well it is hard to get a solution when it is one sided and the district does not want to work with the public so how do you propose there will ever be a solution with these people that are currently in charge?Apple have a good night.
August 17, 2009 at 1:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
There is one question I have for Mr Patterson since I missed it in the article. I wonder what the heck she means when she said that 75% of the students in Hall, Edison,and Noyes recieved reduced or free lunch is she saying that these children cannot learn because they come from poor familys? Maybe she needs to clarify what she is saying in this statement.Also she want to look around at the St Joseph Economy I bet she will find more free and reduced lunches this year all through the district school.But I would like for her to personally publicly explain what this statement she made means.
August 17, 2009 at 9:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
mm, the district had to deal with the transfer situation. It had been allowed to get out of control as the prior administration wanted to never say no. That so many of our children were transfers (somewhere around 20%) causes all sorts of problems. The district, by the election, was forced to do something. Had it honored all transfers it would not have been able to predict with any reasonable accuracy where the kids would attend so the lines could not be drawn. Yes, they allowed it to fester for too long, but the parents who transferred made two serious errors in judgment. First, many purchased houses in locations where they did not want their kids to go to schoool. Second, in thinking that the transfer policy would never change.
August 17, 2009 at 9:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
238er,
I realize what you are saying but here is a way to look at the 20% of the transfers you are refering to there must have been a reason why there was this many transfers. See there is always a root cause to a problem. So what was it that had 20%transfer rate from the school these children were suppost to go to? Also you maybe correct in saying people bought homes in areas where they did not want to send their kids and this maybe the reason but not all of the transfers account for this.Also some of us bought homes in the areas where we did want our children to go to school and it has been years and years since any redisticting had been done. So your saying that anybody that buys a home anywhere and I mean anywhere in St Joseph in subject to redistricting and shouldcall the district and ask them if they are going to be redistricting anytime soon for you know if to buy a home or not I do not believe so.And they Knew where the transfers were just look at the old map it had pins marking transfer children so they could have planned just fine.And before anybody calls me stupid these are my beliefs and they could have made things work out differently then they did and now they have one heck of a mess and do not know how to deal with it very well.
August 17, 2009 at 9:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
238er, since the district is the third largest employer in the city ( ?) and the district has changed back to the school choice option for teachers overall, how much of the student population will be transfers? also, the district was taking hardship transfers when this nclb snafu arose. ( let me say that i think it is good that the teachers got the choice option, but it is odd that the superintendent said absolutely NO transfers and then they quietly changed that. as far as i can ascertain this has not been reported..... big surprise there!!!)
if there are requests for schools and the district claims the first choice is full, and it is due to teacher transfers or already approved hardship transfers, i don't think that will be in compliance with the mandate. the only students who should not be bumped to make room for nclb transfers are the elementary school age children of elementary teachers who are transferring to their parent's school.
August 17, 2009 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
I personally think if the teachers are transfering all students within the district should be able to transfer no matter what. I personally believe if they took the teachers transfers away and quitely gave it back to them then this is kind of onesided to the public and I believe it is a form of discrimination to the people that want to transfer and this is not vindictive it is my opinion and beliefs what is good for one is good for all right.But I realize we are not going to get transfers and if these schools children that can transfer from and the schools the did not met are full and there are teacher transfer children are there then they need to go to the school district they live in.If not how would this be in compliant with the mandate?I would be very interested in how many transfer request they have at this point and I would think the NewsPress would check into this and report it to the public.
August 17, 2009 at 10:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
There are many many folks who bought houses in areas that were not within the school's district or even close. I know of many folks who were driving their child across town to attend a particular school. On the other hand, a friend recently bought a new house but had waited until the youngest child was no longer effected by these lines (think going to high school). Redistricting should take place on a regular basis to avoid the large disturbances.
H, do I understand your point ... if a non-teacher's child had transferred to a school, under your theory, they could be displaced from their school in favor of a NCLB child?
mm, on a side note. Please use puncuation. Things like commas, periods (followed by spaces), full sentences, paragraphs (the NP allows you to use the return or enter key) make your comments readable. Just because you don't agree with me does not relieve you of this requirement.
August 17, 2009 at 10:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
238er,
Are you the puncuation police? I did not know this was a requiremnt to post here. Just a requirement of yours right.I am so sorry I will try harder just for you.
August 17, 2009 at 10:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
238er, it is not actually My point. i am saying that if the letter of the law is to be followed with regard to nclb transfers, their transfers should logically take primacy over any other transfer. the district has completely re-instituted teacher's ability to chose their schools ( again, i think this is fair and don't disagree with it except that it was first adamantly denied in the public eye, and then quietly re-instated) . i would like to know how many of the student population at the four schools available to title one transfers are teacher or hardship transfers? the title one children should not be bumped to a second choice school....... that defeats the purpose of giving these students a Choice.
August 17, 2009 at 11:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
When the district brags at length about specific school successes (such as Blue Ribbon Schools), they lead people to believe that these schools and teachers are superior to other good schools and teachers. Many parents do want the best for their children. When they see that Blue Ribbon sign, they may want their children to go there. Maybe the district should start giving credit EVERYWHERE that credit is due. Maybe it's time for them to start bragging on other schools and other teachers who have done exceptional work. For instance, just to the south of Neely, there is a nice little park. I think it's called, "Public Achievement Park." Would that park have been made, had Neely and St. Pat's Schools not existed? Had the schools, students, and teachers, not been appreciated and respected in that particular community, would this have happened? Now, as I remember, the superintendent, at the time, made a challenge to the neighborhood, to improve their area. I believe even the county got involved in some of the neighborhood endeavors. This was done because the community wanted the school and was willing to work to keep it. They were building their community in a positive way. It's too bad it was not measurable on the MAP. Then it might have mattered more. As another example, I remember a very nice feature story about a young teacher at Edison who taught an older gentlemen how to read. Surely, this is not the only teacher who deserves recognition. On another front, as a perk for working in a particular place, businesses will offer some kind of incentive or break for their employees. Is it so terrible for teachers to be allowed to have their children in the buildings they are teaching in? If that child gets sick or injured at another school, the teacher/parent may have to leave the classroom and go to the other school, thus leaving the teacher's classroom and depriving her students of learning experience. It's a far less disruptive situation if the injured/sick student is in the same building with his or her parent. I really have no problem with this perk for the teachers. Fellow taxpayers, think of it as getting more bang for your buck.
August 17, 2009 at 11:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
dilly, so the district should not recognize the schools that consistently do well?
Also, the area around Neely has also voted repeatedly against financially supporting the district by wide margins (70% plus) in many elections over many years. During the last round on the levy the district tried to shut Neely down and the community rallied (this park project was part of it) and then when the levy came up the area spit in the board's eye by voting something like 90% against the levy.
August 17, 2009 at 11:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
238er, It could be a trust issue, but another point...is it the school district's job to get even with those who may not agree with how they do things, or is it their job to try to do the best, in the community, to raise the community? I always thought education was to raise up and enlighten, not to display purely political vengeance. I was not arguing with the Blue Ribbon Schools, but using your argument, the only good teaching was done in Blue Ribbon Schools. I doubt it. The teacher, I referred to at Edison, got Teacher of the Year, that year. I would be curious, and have no idea, how many Blue Ribbon School teachers have won that distinction in the past? I will be awaiting your reply. All this talk about test scores, reminds me of a college professor who always used to say, "Be nice to the average student. Chances are, he very well may be hiring you in the job market." Something to think about.
August 17, 2009 at 12:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
or...... maybe the district did nothing to try and reach out to the neely parents electorally? come on 238er, you KNOW the district relies on vote counting to push forward their initiatives. the people in mid town Don't count to them.
this election will be more of the same.
August 17, 2009 at 12:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
238er,
Funny how you'd target mm1967 for punctuation errors, and say nothing about many of the rest of us. I'd also point out the old adage "Those who live in glass houses.....".
No one, here, is above the occasional grammatical error or fat-fingered typo....
It seems rather small of you to point out one individual, while giving an apparent "pass" to everyone else...
August 17, 2009 at 1:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
MM seems to be one of the more prolific posters and his points are lost and hard to understand largely because of his unwillingness to use punctuation, etc. Based on the repeated nature of the posts, I assume he does this by choice rather than as a typo.
At the office, I use IE7 which does not have spell check. At home I use Firefox which does have spell check. I recommend Firefox.
H, the Neely area wanted something from the district : to keep their school open. They thumbed their noses at the district on the levy (5 or so years ago). The district tried to buy them off with a new building. (This election) They thumbed their noses at the district again. Good thing I'm was not on the board as my attitude would have been screw 'em.
August 17, 2009 at 2:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
I guess, 238er, my point was that there are errors in almost EVERYONE'S posts....including yours.
Again...."Those who live in glass houses...."
August 17, 2009 at 3:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
238er, did the district ever think about going to the neighborhood and simply asking them if they wanted to keep their Old school or wanted a new one?
oh, i forgot, the old school is inefficient and functionally obsolete. must have economic excellence.......
sorry, i just couldn't resist that.
if the district really wanted to think out side the box, they could go to a k-5 grade level for elementary schools, thus making the functional obsolescence issue moot. then they could build a single middle school to accommodate the shift of students from the 6th grade.
i do not understand why the district has such a non-conforming division in lower to middle school. for one thing it must make the PTA for the two year middle schools nearly impotent due to the short grade span. i would think that it would be extremely difficult to get any kind of school spirit/fundraising efforts going because "poof" the students are gone before any accomplishments can be achieved.
August 17, 2009 at 3:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
i find mm's comments to simply be in the "stream of consciousness".
a lot of younger people dispense with grammar and punctuation on the internet. i, too, have made comments about incoherent posts, as when there was such a confab over the union striking at the box plant. i did so because i felt so sad that it was clear that those folks had almost No options if their effort failed, as it did.
238er, don't you find another "frequent poster" here to be nearly as incomprehensible on the same issues????? i don't believe i have ever seen you chide that person.
August 17, 2009 at 3:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
The neighborhood seemed to make that point when they stated they still wanted a school in their neighborhood. The district tried to deliver.
My nieces attend school in a district that is K-2 in one building. Then 3 to 6 in two buildings. 7 to 8 in one building and 9 to 12 in one. They have 2200 students total.
I'm not sure that a citywide 6 to 8 school is a good idea. I don't understand what is non-conforming about the school structure here. It seems to be pretty standard.
The district has been and still is very bad about thinking outside the box. We can agree on that point.
August 17, 2009 at 3:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
my son was stuck in a similar situation in tampa. the public schools were k-5, then a single grade for 6th ( two schools) and for 7th (two schools). it was completely unsatisfactory. there was no way for the teachers to get any feedback on the students from the year before if there was difficulty , and absolutely no school spirit.
238er, we agree far more often than we disagree. we are simply both passionate and brilliant people . humble, also!!!!! LOL
perhaps it is just my personal experience, but i am much more familiar with the k-5, 6-8 division.
August 17, 2009 at 3:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
238er,
You posted above that if you were on the board your attitude toward the Neely district would be screw them. Well guess what that is what the district is doing to the Neely area now as well as alot of other areas and families.
Hey on another note I hope you can understand this since I do not use puncuation very correctly and you are policing my post.
August 17, 2009 at 7:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
238er,
I almost forgot to say that these parents of Neely that were sent to Hall are going to have the last laugh if they want to transfer. Also the parents of students of Webster that were sent to Edison or Noyes will have the last laugh as well if they chose to transfer. There I said it, one for the parents for a change.Now deal with it SJSD/SJSB you all made this mess.Not the public.This board and administration now has to earn and I said earn the public trust and respect back before the public is going to pass any levy or stand behind them on anything.And I personally do not see them making any attempt to do this still.
August 17, 2009 at 7:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
mm, my point is that if you write with better English you make YOUR point understood. Your prior posts are garbled. You obviously care about the topic and are better served when your point is not lost in the noise.
August 17, 2009 at 7:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
238er says...
H, check out this article:
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.co...
I find that the senior administration of the district is too willing to want to follow the status quo (think Smith, Flowers, etc.) rather than try find solutions to fix the problems. The solutions are in our community but the district often chooses to ignore the community.
August 17, 2009 at 8:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
peoplerule says...
Please understand that AYP(average yearly progress) is a moving target. The NCLB (No Child Left Behind Law) mandates that an increasing number of students achieve at grade level (grade level achievement is somewhat arbitrary--set by State Boards of Education, professors of education, politicians and textbook companies that design and sell tests).
Each year a higher number of students in each class are supposed to demonstrate on the day of the test that they have achieved proficiency in that subject. That means that they have achieved grade level.
In five more years, 100% of all students in every grade 3-10 must be proficient or all schools will fail to meet AYP. Every student means all but the bottom 1% of special education students; all of the non-English speaking students in 15 different languages here (tested in English not their native languages); all of the free and reduced lunch children--some who did not learn their ABC's until kindergarten; and all of the children who don't quite qualify for special education but who struggle in school.
Originally testing was to demonstrate what students and what schools needed help (Arthur Mallory and Governor Ashcroft). Under NCLB, testing is used to punish schools and school districts and to destroy public education by 2015 when almost all schools fail.
While proficiency is highly desirable and all students should have the opportunity to learn to their ability, the program does not account for students' differences in learning readiness and learning speed; it does not account for differing goals for learning--sports, social relations, the arts, science (testing required but no penalty); or history(not even tested).
Worst of all, the testing regimen and accounting system on which these high stakes judgments are made does not follow the improvement of each child from year to year as they progress--no, it tests an entirely different group of children each year with no evaluation of how much each one learned.
Finally, end-of-year testing used to be done in May--at the end of the year. State and local administrators have pushed testing up to the beginning of the fourth quarter, early April. Teachers are hard pushed to have their students through all the material required for proficiency in only 6 1/2 months of school.
Believe me, administrators downtown and in the schools are focused on little else than the tests. The pressure on teachers and students is incredible.
August 17, 2009 at 9:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
heritage_sarahhochschwender says...
as schultz of hogan's heros said......"very interesting". that is a Great blog site, one i might just disappear into for a few days. thank you for posting it!!!!!
while i didn't obviously read the entire blog, there sure seems to be a clear correlation between academics and their bias for approving of a system based on ..... academia. i believe that i may be one of the dying breed of parents who was completely happy with my son choosing a liberal arts degree........ rather than being an accidental tourist who allowed his accumulation of credits guide him to the path of least resistance.
as for your estimation of the administration..... AMEN.
imho, smith is the epitome of the peter principle.
August 17, 2009 at 9:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shopgirl says...
Every time I think of the current administration, I'm reminded of the Peter Principle.
August 17, 2009 at 10:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dillygent1 says...
Peoplerule, I think your post was right-on, but my computer can't vote, for some reason. Actually, I'm glad I reread your post because I was taking it the wrong way--that by 2015 ALL would be at l00% and we can throw a party. Such is the futility that is being hoisted on public education today.I do agree that public schools should be held accountable, but I don't believe politicians, and book sellers should be the ones to decide what that means. One thing I like to always repeat--and nobody ever picks up on--is that most employers main concern about their employees is in the realm of self-discipline,trustworthiness, promptness, being able to work together... and NOT so much in the ability to do the job. I don't know as much about the MAP test, as some folks do, but somehow, I don't think these things are on that test. Maybe all this emphasis on test scores has taken time away from some things that might be even more important to the students, such as team work and a sense of responsibility,and a sense that some important adult cares about them as individuals.
August 17, 2009 at 10:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
singlemomof3 says...
If the sjsd is going to revoke transfers of kids who have been going to school at the same place since preschool, they should be making the IEP's available to their new teachers sooner than the day before school starts. When the child shows up for back to school night the teacher should be aware of who the special ed teacher will be. Here's the thing about the transfers. I don't know these people, I don't trust them with my son. Its not home...yet!
August 18, 2009 at 2:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sidamo says...
238er, I agree! Leaders should LEAD, not look for easy outs or blame. If a Leader sees a clear path that they sincerely think is the very best, they should pursue it and welcome debate and criticism as opportunity to further explain the direction they lead. Don't make proclamations they are not willing to retract publicly (i.e. teacher transfers). Leaders make tough decisions and take ownership when they fail - just as much as they deserve accolades at each success.
238er said in part, "I find that the senior administration of the district is too willing to want to follow the status quo (think Smith, Flowers, etc.) rather than try find solutions to fix the problems."
Flowers did not look like a happy camper at Coleman's open house last night.
August 18, 2009 at 8:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
music4602 says...
Last night IQ2 had the story that so far 95 transfers have been requested in the district relating to NCLB. I'm surprised the number is that low. Of those transfers, I have specific knowledge that, as MM said would happen, 55 of those transfers are moving from Edison and not one involves a child that went to school there last year. It's a misconception that Edison is a bad school. 2008's Teacher of the year teaches there. It's a misconception that any school is inherently "bad."
Gains in testing scores were made at each of the schools that failed to make AYP. Unfortunately the 7%-9% gains demanded by NCLB were not to be. This year NCLB demands another 7%-9% increase in scores and as a punishment to the non achieveing schools their resources for funding extra reading teachers will now go to "professional development" of staff and transporting the transfers to other schools. In effect the non achieveing schools must teach this year's students to a higher level with fewer resources.
This will be the case for more schools as the requirements in NCLB compliance continue to climb until every school is a failure. Two students, in a single testing category at Edison failed to meet the NCLB goals therefore Edison is a failure in the eyes of NCLB. Mark my words, this time next year you will read that more than threee schools failed to meet the NCLB's adequate yearly progress.
August 18, 2009 at 9:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
95 transfers and most familys have more than one child.And if it is true most of these are from Webster familys. Which would account for about all of the children that were moved to Edison due to the closing of Webster. I think the webster parents are speaking loud and clear.
August 18, 2009 at 10:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
saturnlady says...
mm, you are right about Webster kids from Edison. On a side note, less Webster kids are requesting transfers from Noyes because there are a lot of Webster teachers, Webster students and the Webster principal are in Noyes now.
August 18, 2009 at 10:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faerie says...
For those of you who insist on repeating the mantra 'if they had left the sunset clause intact, they'd have passed the levy', can you please tell me what is the sunset for providing public schools? Far be it from me to let logic rear its ugly head, but don't expect them to ALWAYS provide public schools? Well, guess what, we'll ALWAYS have to pay to fund them. Those of you who say 'why should I pay for schools with my tax money?', well, I suppose you could ask the government for some kind of tax credit if you never attended public school and you sent your kids to private school. I'd be okay with that.
A very brilliant writer said something I totally agree with the other day. He said, "I think healthcare is a human right, like education." If we all thought that way, 2 of our biggest concerns right now could be solved.
One thing on using 'tests' to gauge how well children are doing. BAD IDEA. Even adults can have test anxiety. Why should we think children are immune? Some people can take a test like no other. Give me a study guide and I'll ace any test you give me. Come back a year later with no reinforcement to that information and I couldn't tell you maybe half of what I tested on. Uniform testing has never been an accurate way of guaging anything.
August 18, 2009 at 11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sidamo says...
Faerie,
No one has a "right" to be healthy, beautiful or smart. We have the freedom and opportunity to improve those areas to the best of our ability. It is Idealistic to say that education or healthcare is a right, but not well thought out. Exactly how educated do we have a right to be? 6th Grade? Masters?
I believe the mantra is 'give us responsible, straightforward, open District leadership, and we'd have the levy passed'.
Agreed about the tests. The problem is that while children are individuals, they're tested as socioeconomic groups. If an individual student improves year-to-year, that is progress. Not all will improve a prescribed amount.
August 18, 2009 at 3:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faerie says...
And as happened after the election, no one has an answer to what the sunset clause is to provide public schools, especially it seems, not those who so badly want one on the levy.
The minute education goes the wayside of being a right, so goes all of our freedom. Have you not heard of the dark ages? Do you realize that the reason for them was because government made it illegal to read and write? They did so to have more absolute control over the people. How not well thought out is it? If it wasn't a right how come we condemn countries that don't allow women to become educated? Having access to education and healthcare has nothing to do with being beautiful, after all beauty is in the eye of the beholder, being healthy or educated is not.
August 19, 2009 at 10:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
irish_diva says...
It should be no surprise to the SJSD central office administrators nor the building principals that their schools may be facing sanctions due to lack of progress. The data shows a trend that there will be more sanctions to come. A good building administrator and a curriculum director worth their salary should pay close attention prior to and during the state assessments to the preparation given by the teachers and the anticipated performance by the students. Reviewing the scores of all of the district's schools on the state's education website should give all concerned information on what is to come. I encourage you to check this information because it has yet to be printed in the paper and I don't expect that it will be. More money does not bring student improvement, good leadership and teaching along with parental involvement supports and encourages it. Oh, and NCLB is a federal mandate. Get to the root of the problem and stop making excuses about "how it used to be" and "test anxiety". The school patrons need to demand that the district leader make a public statement and state a plan for educational improvement as well as a projected budget for district funds. Lastly, "Pops" you're not illogical, just misinformed. DC politicians did not set the standards for SJ; Missouri educators did. AYP standards were originally set by individual states. Each are different. Consider why the state of Texas performs well.
August 20, 2009 at 8:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faerie says...
Um, Apple, how statistically sound is it? I grew up on 14th & Patee and attended Edison and Humboldt. We were very poor, to this day I still believe that government cheese was the best cheese ever made and know what it's like to grow up in houses that were condemned, as well as what it's like to accompany my parents to the bar on a regular basis, however I can outtest just about anyone. I just have a knack for it. Testing is just not a sound way to judge what children know. For those that test well, it is, for those that don't it isn't. Testing doesn't always prove comprehension. It doesn't matter if you have money or not. Perhaps more emphasis needs to be on reading, the more people read, the smarter they seem to be, and the library is always free.
August 21, 2009 at 12:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )