mm1967 says...

Gee there a concept the superintendent of Raytown said that they have redistricted to and that they "COMMUNICATE"with the parents and their patrons.Maybe our district should nake a phone call and take some lessions from this district.
There is one comment that continues to come up from educators that bothers me and that is disadvantaged children learn slower than advantage children.In my opinion children are children and we have had some of the most disavantage children grow up to be very well educated and in some very high postions in our country.Which bring me back to if children that are going to school and the school and the school counsler knows/see's something is going on at home to affect these children it only takes a phone call to the right agency to get these children some help.We can continue to harp about the standard or we can put a plan in place to make sure our children met AYP.Not the way Mrs Patterson is looking at it.I think she said just wait a couple of years and all of our schools will be failing and we will not have to worry about transfers.I call this a piss poor administrator she should be focused on the schools improving.These are just my opinions.

August 29, 2009 at 6:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

kw says...

I agree that the administration in St. Joe is often times their own worst enemy (for numerous reasons ranging from a failure to communicate, a lack of outsiders with original ideas being brought into the district, bullying, favoritism, etc.) HOWEVER it is a fact that some children do come with backgrounds that makes it very difficult for them to be as successful as their more affluent counterparts.
Children from economically disadvantaged families are by and large exposed to hundreds of thousands of fewer words by the age of five. These words are in the form of simply reading them to simply hearing them as their parents tend (not always) to have a more limited vocabulary.
These same kids also tend to receive less praise at home than their counterparts. This is not politically correct but it is a statistical FACT.
These two things make it much more difficult for them to be equal to and catch up with the kids who grow up in homes with more advantages.
And since 'mm' played the 'piss poor' card lets not forget about piss poor parenting - but that is an entire other topic.

August 29, 2009 at 7:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

77cod says...

Failing to answer 2 or 3 questions on the SAT test will cause you to not get admitted to college, ruin your chances of a scholarship, and probably mean your choice of college will not accept you. So, are tests used to evaluate performance or not? The assistant superintendent like most academia want it there way when it benefits them. Get back to your job/task and that is providing the best education (that doesn't mean big new expensive schools with A/C state of art computers, etc.). That means reading math and study for at least 8 hours. School is for the students not the teachers.

August 29, 2009 at 7:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

is anyone else sick of the excuses?

patterson as point guard isn't working...... i wonder if the district reads this coverage and just cringes, or do you think they are clueless and that this is damage control?

August 29, 2009 at 8:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jambreman says...

Looking at NCLB, I think it is a bad deal all around. This law now forces teachers to teach to the test, where they're so consumed by meeting these standards that the only thing our kids are being taught is what will be on these MAP tests. I heard this directly from a SJSD teacher. I am not in the educational field, but it concerns me that one of their own would say this.

Another point about NCLB is that the federal government mandated this but failed to provide the necessary funds to support it. It's like having champagne taste but living on beer prices. Sen. Kennedy supported NCLB but then stated that there aren't enough funds to support it.

Utah passed a law a few years back that permitted their schools to ignore NCLB if the federal provisions interfered with Utah's laws on education. And can anyone tell me where, in the Constitution, it gives the government permission to inject itself into the state school systems?

I think we need to work from the bottom and go up, not the other way around. We need to set standards relitively low at first and slowly raise them over the span of several years, not just "all of a sudden-BOOM" you must meet these high standards.

August 29, 2009 at 8:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

jamberman. there has been a gradated achievement structure for nclb. missouri just cheated from 2002 to 2007........

i agree with your above points regarding the flaws in the unfunded federal mandate directive, and the statistical improbability of achieving 100%.

teaching to the test is a phrase which has become a ralling cry for the teacher's unions. if a school does well...... they teach to the test. if it doesn't meet ayp, the test is unfair......

August 29, 2009 at 8:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

shopgirl says...

Sometimes, you read this stuff and you just feel a cold fury. Honestly, what a bunch of crap! The point you are missing, Ms. Patterson, is that Edison is not 8 points below GOOD, it's 8 points below ACCEPTABLE. Look at the data:

% Proficient
Communication

Overall 30.1
Black 26.1
Hispanic 38.5
White 31.3
Free lunch 31.1

Math

Overall 30.8
Black 34.8
Hispanic 23.1
White 30.1
Free lunch 31.1

(Source: http://dese.mo.gov/planning/profile/a...)

No person of integrity could defend this school's performance in light of these data. Three of 10 kids are passing the exam. SEVEN OF TEN KIDS ARE FAILING. And those poor kids that everyone contends are dragging us down? THEY are exceeding the mean at Edison.

This district employs ONE strategy: muddy the waters and create a fallguy. Last spring, it was the Big Bad City Outsiders with their surveys. Now, it's the feds with their impossible standards. Every PERSON in this distict -- every parent, every employer, every taxpayer -- oughta be spittin' mad by now.

August 29, 2009 at 8:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

shopgirl says...

At least St. Joe doesn't have that arrogant fellow from Raytown: "Unless you're in the education business, you're not going to understand what Adequate Yearly Progress is . . . "

I'm no mechanic, but I can sure as heck recognize when my car's run out of gas.

This claptap from the Disgruntled Superintendent's Club is hardly newsworthy. I don't actually find ideas from a guy who heads the 418th ranked school district in Missouri as particularly helpful or credible.

August 29, 2009 at 9:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Lyndon_Barry says...

This would have been a great opportunity for the District to unveil a well thought out, effective plan for dealing with low proficiency levels rather than continuing to explain it away with PR style techniques. Mr. Weston and Ms. Patterson are making alot of apples to oranges comparisons here and it IS a very complex situation to understand. The District chose an interesting set of stastics to put out. One chart shows District progress as a whole which is not necessarily reflective of any individual school. Still, take a close look and you'll see that district-wide there has been very little improvement in Communication Arts over the last FOUR years and Math has even gone progressively down. If you were to look at individual schools you'd find that many of them have not done THIS well.

The other little tables that Ms. Patterson provided have nothing to do with annual progress, which is what NCLB and the MAP program is all about. They simply show that last year (or in any given year, one might expect) 6th graders do a little better on the tests than 5th graders do, 5th graders do a little better than 4th graders, and so on. If you needed to defend that your schools were advancing year by year by producing a table showing an upward curve in improvent in SOMETHING you would have to sift past layers and layers of meaningful stastics to settle on this. As far as showing a trend of progress over time these charts are entirely off-topic.

Failing schools are not just something that happened because proficiency targets suddenly reached some critical threshold. You can look at the AYP for the school mentioned at the beginning of the article and see that this is a school that the District should have been concerned about over a 7 year period.

The Savannah Superintendent's statement is correct- a school can do well in a number of areas and be found in need of improvement over one subcategory. Central High is a good example of this- the school does well overall but is not showing progress in one subgroup. This is QUITE a different situation from what is going on in many of our elementary schools, where the schools are underperforming and not making progress as a whole.

Failing schools, or what the District might call 'the perception of failing schools' is not the big problem here. The big problem is that the District has no effective improvement effort under way in spite of state and federal guidelines, and will not even go so far as to admit that one is needed.

August 29, 2009 at 10:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

It is a Federal mandate and it exists. Until an argument that is strong enough challenges the mandate for the Federal courts to overturn it, it is the measurment that is out there. The state of Utah if it has not already, will most likely find themselves in serious trouble in the federal funding arena if they follow their state law. Looking foward to actually see that one get challenged, lets see how well it stands up in the Federal courts when it is called to task. CA has several times tried to manevuer around Federate laws and mandates by implementing state legislation and it is has failed. I have not read anything about a real problem with non-compliance in Utah, so it most likely will never hit the court system.
The article in my view conveys an excuse why compliance was not made and goes right to the core of the attitude projected on NCLB itself from not just our district, but several districts. If the attitude from the very people who are tasked with insuring its compliance is negative, then the results are what they are. A real interesting point was made about SATs, etc. We are tested throughout our entire lives for certifications, qualifications, etc. If we do not make the threshold, we do not get what we strive for.
NCLB, if it is not a good measurement indicator, then get it overturned and something into practice that is more conducive to a true measurement, and make a strong argument for it. Until then, it is just talk and it is all it is, talk. It is a mandate and it needs to be followed. I have to adhere to federal regulations every day with my career. This is no different.

August 29, 2009 at 2:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

chara says...

folks we get what we voted for. if you didn't vote last school board election then you have no say in my mind. elections are coming get out and vote,don't sit an complain.

it would interesting to see how of the pepole who complain never get off their duff and vote. lets put our energy in getting out the vote and make some changes in the school board. just bitchin never gained anything.

if you don't like whats going on in the schools,use your constitutional right and vote. there your schools,not the pepole downtown. sad when maybe 30% VOTE.

August 29, 2009 at 4:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

classyt says...

What I find funny is that Ms. Patterson defends the district, but ask how many teachers have been discharged because of their 2 or 3 kids that didn't make the grade. She seems to play both sides of the fence and uses the same excuses, but for different reasons whatever fits the moment. That said, our district has frustrated so many individuals I'm not sure they know what plan of action to take to make our community happy. I know they need to have a good old fashioned town hall meeting and start really listening to the main complaints and start all over. We as a community need to start thinking about what is the main complaints. The two schools are gone they are not coming back. Let's start from there and move ahead, with a positive outlook, stop rehashing the stuff you can't change and think about new things you would like to happen to improve our district.

August 29, 2009 at 5:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

classyt,
You are correct the 2 schools are gone and are not coming back. But this is what has created all of this mess and we are not goingto get any new schools in the next few years so what can be done to fix the problem?I hope the population of children does not grow to much over the next few years the children will be sitting in the front lawns of the schools going to class.Do we need new schools sure we do but reality says we are not going to get them.So it was to quickly and harshly to close Webster and Neely.I mean if we are not going to get new school to take the over flow of students then the schools are going to remain crowded.It continuosly comes back to these schools closings which then caused the redistricting and overcrowding which has mad the public mad as H.Now it will take a bond issue and a new levy to get everything done we need to do to solve this problem. But the fact remains these people in charge have made to much discontent in the public for them to pass anything for them.It seems as if now that all of these issues have developed for these closings that the district has created the perfect storm for themselves and do not know what to do to solve it or how to calm the public.I know this may sound like a broken record but this is what you hear in the public everyday and now that school has started you hear ity from several parents as well as teachers they also think nothing will pass because the public is made as H.So in reality these 2 positions on the board and a couple of administration personal are going to need to be replaced and the new people are going to have to calm the storm and gain the public trust back till our school can move forward.Thisis just reality if we like it or not just listen to the public and read the majority of the post here they all seem to say the same thing in a different way with a few exception of a few people.

August 29, 2009 at 5:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

get_real says...

I agree with chara. We need to start by voting for new board members. But let's also get the broom out and sweep out all the downtown administration, as well as any building principals that need to go. These people have completely lost the entire faith and confidence of this community. Things won't change until we get a fresh new start with board members that won't be afraid to listen to the community and displace downtown administrators when the need arises. The current board seems to believe everything that the downtown office tells them. Quit being stick figures and take charge of the situation. My belief was that the job of a board member was to make the learning environment better for our children, as well as to hold the downtown administrators accoutable.
Also, if the downtown administrators were open about the funding and show their checks and balances, instead of hididng behind the $32 to $35 million in reserves, then the community might have a little more trust and be willing to work with them.
Lastly, the boundary lines still have not been addressed properly. The board needs to force the downtown administration to re-draw the boundary lines so that they actually make sense. Example, as a concerned citizen stated previously, we bus students from Oakridge Apartments to Robidoux Middle School when Bode is 10 blocks away! Students from Brittany Village go to Noyes instead Coleman, where they should attend simply because it makes sense and IT SAVES THE TAXPAYERS MONEY!

August 29, 2009 at 5:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Two comments have interested me...The first one was Lyndon's comment about Central High School. Lyndon, didn't these students at Central go through the elementary and middle schools of the SJSD? Somewhere, something was done right. You would have to track those students, but someone did something right. I am on record as being against the MAP, but, as stated, it is here, so you deal with it. One thing I would like to have seen, if there was to be an AYP, was, as the class advanced from grade to grade, the expectation would be higher. I say this because every year, a new class comes in which will have to begin taking MAP tests and every year the senior class graduates. I would think it would be a lot more fair for class levels to be evaluated in the schools, as opposed to a blanket rating. The other comment that I must admit I loved was the one that said she/he hoped that Ms. Patterson would remember her justification for herself when she thinks about firing a teacher for being within 8 points of passing.

August 29, 2009 at 6:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

classyt says...

I agree they closed the schools too soon, but again they're not coming back so tell me how does rehashing that same old disappointment help to move things ahead? I'm not trying to be a smart***, but isn't it like flogging a dead horse when you (the community) keep going back to what started it? There has got to be a point where people stop gripping about the same thing over and over.
I do agree that rehashing the boundaries might do some good and that is a small might, but talking about the schools; that issue is gone. The recommendations from people on here to get rid of everybody is that the type of recommendation you purpose too? Let's face it that is frustration and anger talking, everybody knows that can't happen and shouldn't. There could be great discussion on here if people would stop thinking with their emotions and start thinking with their head. I just want some constructive reasoning mentality not misery loves company thinking. Nothing good ever comes from just digging in your heals and pouting till you get your way.

August 29, 2009 at 6:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

ClassyT, When schools close, effects from that closure linger for years. Ask staff, students, and neighbors of Blair, Sherwood, and McKinley schools. It's kind of like dealing with the MAP. It is what it is, and you have to deal with it. But to the people who were involved there, these memories linger forever. Neely and Webster are just the latest additions to the population of the "ghost schools" of St. Joseph. It is progress, they say, but memories still linger.I would imagine that there are very few elementary schools in town that have an alumni association, which Neely has. People were very proud of that place. Webster people were attached to their school, as were the people of Blair, Sherwood, McKinley and all the others. I would imagine there are people in the Washington School neighborhood who remember that school well. Heck, I even hear people talking fondly of old Floyd School.

August 29, 2009 at 7:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

classyt,
These are not my emotions speaking it is logic after you hear this out in the public and also see parents that have not posted on these things before come and say the same things.As well to see the issues it has caused at the schools and for the children and familys. It is reality that this is what is going to have to happen before we can move forward for our schools if we like it or not. And my personal belief is they must go as well for the betterment of the schools.If they do not go our schools are in for a long hard road ahead of them and we will not see any new schools anytime soon.The administration has let this get to far out of hand to get a handle on it at this point. And these folks are not willing to take any of the blame for their actions, they continue to blame thing off on other people or things. This is not how you treat the people you are suppose to answer to.Sorry but I bet you can take this to the bank there will not be any levys or bonds passed till there are new board members and new upper administration in place and they gain the publics respect and trust back.

August 29, 2009 at 8:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

classyt says...

dilly point well taken, but you can have fond memories without letting it get in the way. I'm just saying people are so mad about the closings, they are letting it stop them from moving ahead, on figuring out what is best for our district now and in the future. I have lived in this community all of my life and Neely and Webster have many fond memories for me too. I am going to savor the memories, (however more memories are of the kids not the schools themselves)but I want a better future for the kids and in my opinion, just my opinion, we won't get one if everybody just stays upset and won't think about other things than the district shouldn't have done...

August 29, 2009 at 8:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Lyndon_Barry says...

Dilly, Central is one of three high schools here and you've kinda pointed out a mindset people have- and I'm not saying you, necessarily, but others I've seen posting in the past- if you want to talk about problem schools people will point out Field, Coleman, Bode and Central and argue about what a fine school district we have here. Make no mistake- Field and Coleman are among the very best elementary schools in the state and Ellison, Pershing and Webster have never been far behind, and we have Bode and Central as well. But these are only a few of our schools. Even with several excellent, excellent schools we're still not keeping up with half the districts in the state and sorry, but to me that seems to suggest that there really are problems where problems seem to be.

The problem that exists is not that you can point to any school at random and say that it's not measuring up. The problem that exists is that we have a huge achievement gap between our various schools and there's not even any way of knowing if anything can be done about it because the District will not so much as acknowledge that this situation exists.

ONE OUT OF TEN students in one of our high schools demonstrated that they could do Math at their own grade level last year. If you want to make the case that the only thing wrong with that is that we are testing to find out, well I'm glad it makes sense to you...

August 29, 2009 at 9:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Lyndon, I'm not sure why you are address me, but I do have a few observations...First, you talk of Central's excellence. I'm not going to argue that, except last year, Benton had 3 times the National Merit Scholars that Central had, which was 18 to 6. I am against the MAP because it does not promote balanced learning. MAP tested subjects are emphasized in the classroom more than those which are not MAP tested. But the MAP is here and I acknowledge that. What I was interested in them doing, was following the development of each grade level student as he goes up through high school and graduates. As I have said before...every school year a new group of children begins to take MAP tests in 3rd grade. Every year a senior class graduates from the high schools. I understand measuring progress, but a teacher, of a 3rd grade class this year, will have an entirely different 3rd grade class next year, baring retention. So what you're expecting is that by 2014 that 3rd grade class, which had not taken a MAP previously, is going to be at l00%. I may not be the smartest, but that does't make sense to me.

August 29, 2009 at 10:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

Apple, I defend the mandate until it is overturned. Until something that comes up that validates a better measurement and the argument wins out, NCLB in my view stands regardless of some of the issues I know are with it. If the districts are upset with it, then find a good argument with good validations, get some real public buy in, and start a campaign to overturn it. "Broken record" Apple with due respect,that has got to be the understatement of this entire school debate. How many times have you repeated your point?

August 29, 2009 at 10:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Lyndon_Barry says...

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it seem like I was hammering on you. I started out responding to your obervation above and it just kinda rolled on from there. I guess I get fed up with those people who think that no standards at all are better than those imposed upon us by the World Outside Our Boundaries and I got a little overly wordy.

My kids are in elementary school and my interest is in elementary schools. Since I have just been through a losing battle to save my kid's school that's pretty much the level I look at things. I think that it could be said that MAP performance is more significant at an elementary school level and it is even more significant in elementary schools that have problems. There aren't any schools in Missouri teaching the alphabet to third graders by stacking colored blocks with ABCs on them, and that's because we have a state curriculum which schools across the state are supposed to teach to. The MAP tests are written around this curriculum. Elementary MAP tests focus on what used to be called the '3 Rs'- readin', ritin' and 'rithmetic. These are core studies at an elementary level and any student who can master these can go on to excel at any subject he puts his mind to in the upper grades. It's silly for schools that are already doing well in these areas to overly stress these subjects just to produce a higher proficiency score for the school, but for schools that aren't doing well- well, maybe they SHOULD sideline everything else to bring students' proficiency numbers up in reading and math in the early grades.

It's different in middle and high school where students can choose elective courses. In elememtary school, if a high percentage of kids require remedial studies in reading and math, the entire class is being taught at a remedial level.

The 'MAP test' is what everyone talks about and for all most people know the MAP test and the release of the scores are the entire MAP program. The Missouri Assessment Program (MAP) is actually a program of very large scope. The test results are used in a database that can be used to track everything from long term trends to short term gains. It can be and is used to track something as small as the progress of an individual student throughout his school career or something as large as the overall performance of a district.

The most important things about MAP tests at any level is that it's standardized, so it can be used for year by year comparisons, and that it is tailored to show progress, or a lack thereof- in quite a number of areas. It may not be perfect but it IS well thought out, and if you want to have a program of improvement then you must have some standardized way of measuring progress.

August 29, 2009 at 11:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Lyndon_Barry says...

Dilly, I ran outta space so I'll continue this and make it short. The premise of that 100% proficiency target is that every kid in that brand new 3rd grade you mentioned should be able to read and write and add and subtract at a 3rd grade level by the end of the year. Is 100% a reachable number? No, probably not. Is it a goal that should be shot for? Yes, absolutely.

Didn't mean to slight Benton, it's just when people want to pick out a handful of schools in an attempt to explain the district as a whole by listing a few it's always the same ol' list...

August 29, 2009 at 11:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Orliandor says...

There are more important things in this life than test scores.

August 30, 2009 at 12:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

ClassyT, I agree there should a positive mindset moving forward on educational processes, not only here, but on a national level. NCLB is not new business, all districts that have schools that failed should have seen the indicators leading up to the result before the result occured. Those indicators appeared to have been overlooked and not expressed to the public well enough what consequences would be faced should schools fail.
This is another major reason in my view for our district a sunset clause levy should never be utilized or even come to the table again. I believe this type of levy has hindered progress tremdenously and because it has created unstability with operational funding, priority was placed on saving money as opposed to utilizing maximum cash flow to assist in getting the resources and tools necessary for improvement and adhering to the mandate. I have experience overseeing large government budgets from my military days and I know what it is like when budgets are cut or the required funding is not there. If I was managing this one, I would have most likely made similar decisions with one exception, I would have been out there fighting for what is truly needed to make a difference, justify it, and engage all sections of the community to get the buy in to vote for it.
To me progression and positive movement is campaigning and fighting for what the school system truly needs and finding common ground to get the buy in needed. Sunset clause restricts, and the get "the money aspect any way you can" philsophy is not always the best practice. And I have already expressed my views in another post in greater detail on that element. I disagree with the present direction, I believe it is a step backward and in 5 years the argument comes back. We argue for what we truly need, now, break the status quo paridygm, or we do not need it. If this fails in November I see it as opportunity, the door is wide open to argue for what is truly needed. If it passes, the door is shut for another 5 years minumum and we do not progress, only maintain and it has been argued the .63 cannot even achieve that.
Last thing, a good first start could also include more people having the confidence not to use pseudo names.

August 30, 2009 at 3:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

chara says...

i agree JC, should never use the sunset clause. the school districts a business,and as such needs a certain level of funding thats going to be there every year. saying that,the school district and board need to truely communicate those needs. thers been so much name calling on both sides of the issue,i just see a long road ahead for the schools. sad it has come to this point.

i would love to see a real town hall meetings where i don't have to fill out a card to ask a question. when you lose my wifes yes vote for the bond issue i don't see any hope this will pass.

so my advice would be save the campaign money this election and truly get the board out in the neigborhoods and take the questions whether you agree with them or not. pepole have questions and its there responsibilty to answer all.

then maybe we can build a bond together and come up with some long term goals that most folks can agree to. i've seen some post on here that make very good points.

August 30, 2009 at 9:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Orliandor says...

How sad. At least three people here think test scores ARE the most important things in their lives.

August 30, 2009 at 9:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

peoplerule says...

Let's see, Coleman, Ellison, Field--What is the common factor that produces high scores and all the awards?
Is it the principal? Edison and Hall have great principals, too.

Is it the teachers? I have known many excellent teachers at the schools that win awards and at the schools that did not meet AYP.

Is it caring parents? I bet most of the parents at all schools care.

So what is the advantage? What do the tests test?
Language, mathematics and thinking skills.
Most of the teachers in town live in the northeast.
Most of the doctors, business persons, accountants, professionals do, too.
Children of privilege come to school not only knowing their alphabet, but also reading and writing to some degree. Their vocabulary and world experience is broader because they have actually been outside St. Joseph.
EVEN IF HALL AND EDISON WORK EXTRA HARD TO HELP THEIR MOST DISADVANTAGE CHILDREN TO CATCH UP, THE ADVANTAGED CHILDREN ARE MOVING AHEAD THROUGH THE GRADES.
If we asked children on the test to explain how to fix a bicycle or an automobile engine, how to clean and prepare a fish or a deer, or how to survive when you are broke, I am sure the test scores would be reversed.

The issue goes to the question of what does it mean to be educated, what is the purpose of education, and does everyone have to have the same goals.

If the MAP Test and NCLB are supposed to be helping prepare students for success in life, I think they both fail the AYP.

Are we not simple perpetuating the chasm between those that have and those that have not that NCLB was supposed to correct?

August 30, 2009 at 5:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

I really hate to see such a stress on tests. And yes, John, that's what's going on, but that doesn't make it right. What Peoplerule was discussing, was individual differences. Different people do learn at different rates and in different ways. Some people have photographic memory--can look at a page and remember everything that is on that page. Some people have to experiment with their hands. Some people may not come as prepared to learn, due to what happened overnight at their house. These are all individual differences. The world needs plumbers, mechanics, electritions, cooks, as badly or more than as it needs rocket scientists. Lyndon, I appreciate your interest in your child's education and I sympathize about your school being closed. However, I still believe that it is the final product that should be evaluated, not just what goes on in the lower grades. Have you ever heard of maturity? Different children mature at different levels. Some children go along for years in a mindset of doubting what they are being forced to do and then all of a sudden a light flips on and they take off in learning. Some people are self-starters. Such is individual differences. You talked of striving to reach l00%. I can't argue with the striving part, but the problem is that the school district will lose funding and lose control if they don't make that l00%. Perhaps one of the biggest problems of the world today is that everybody EXPECTS to be evaluated as EXCELLENT. NOBODY is to be AVERAGE. To be average is almost viewed as failure. I also have one other analogy...we have been pushing WINNING in athletics for years. If the team doesn't win, the coach is incompetent, and you get rid of him. Now all of a sudden, academia has to produce l00% WINNERS. Can you look around in town and tell me that your doctor is l00% right? Your financial planner is l00% accurate? Your hairdresser only gives 100% perfect haircuts? Your meals are cooked l00% perfectly? Every time a service call comes to your house, the work is done with l00% accuracy? Your boss gives you l00% excellent evaluations? And yet, our teachers are to teach perfectly at l00%, and our little children are to learn with l00% excellence....

August 30, 2009 at 9:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

stjoeresident says...

i think at this point if someone in the school district said the sky was blue people posting here would argue with it. i am amazed at how long some grudges are held, 10-20-30 years over the smallest thing. Sometimes we really need to just move on. Accept some things and work together towards new goals.

Regardless of whoever was in "administration" they would be facing the same problems and same criticism. I get frustrated at the personal attacks. The administration and teachers and schools are trying to find ways to improve. it just happens to be that not everyone agrees. That's life. can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time. I believe they are not making excuses and are working to make the progress that is needed.

August 30, 2009 at 9:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Lyndon_Barry says...

100% profieciency does not mean 100% scores. Proficient does not mean excellent; proficient means adequate. No, I would not go to a doctor who was not proficient at medicine, and I would not have my hair cut, or what's left of it anyway, by a barber that was not proficient at cutting hair. A kid that could regulary get C's would be identified as a proficient student. If you have 100 kids in 5th grade and 100 kids are found to do 5th grade math ADEQUATELY then you have 100% proficiency. If you have 30 kids who can do math adequately then you have 30% proficiency. Getting kids up to 'average' is the target for kids who are not there, not perfection.

August 30, 2009 at 9:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Lyndon, it is my concern that parents are getting too wrapped up in scores, just as they would for a football or basketball game--and possibly losing sight of what their children ARE learning. If you can tell me that your children ARE learning sufficiently better than you did at a comparable age, WITHOUT using the test score as a reference, then I will concede that maybe the test has merit.

August 30, 2009 at 10:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Lyndon, another problem I have is one I stated in a previous post. For some parents, in the public school system, their child, reaching any proficiency, is bad for the household. For that child, getting proficiency means he needs no more government services and therefore doesn't qualify for any extra money, as disability income. This is another problem of the government getting involved in school districts. On the one hand, they will punish a school district for its students not making proficiency. On the other hand, they will pay parents, whose child does not achieve academically or behaviorally, for NOT achieving academically or behaviorally. The family receives money depending upon what troubles the child has. If there is behavior involved, there might even be free drugs involved, which can be sold on the streets. Hence, that non-proficient child may be the bread winner for that household. In the meantime, the school district can be faced with sanctions for not making proficiency. Do you see a nasty circle here, Lyndon? Schools have been broken up throughout the city. That means schools that didn't have the problem before, may have it now. It could get to be a real problem.

August 30, 2009 at 11:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

saturnlady says...

Dilly, you ARE a dilligent one, aren't you! I don't think that not applying yourself in school is a disability that the the government hands out checks for. But it's a good idea- I can't think of anything that would have a more an immediate and positive boost for the economy of this town!

August 31, 2009 at 9 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

diligent, i have to say that lyndon is stating the issues on the national testing in a much more sensible and accurate way than your own current posts.

please cite the "programs" which this imaginary student you speak of uses to support and provide drugs for the entire household . your "schools have been broken up" and the "nasty circle" comments are extremely troubling.

NCLB is a political issue and the teachers have made certain that it remains so.

August 31, 2009 at 9:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Lyndon_Barry says...

I don't know of any funding the district loses by not making targets. If it's a Title 1 school, the district is required to divert- not lose- 10% of the Title 1 funding for that school to teacher training.

I don't rely on MAP scores to tell me how my kids are doing in school. MAP results are tracked on an individual student level and even though an individual student's test results are not available to the public I'm sure my child's test results are available to me. I've nevet asked for them. I know how my kids are doing in school on a continual basis because I look over their homework and even help them with it at times, and I look over their grade cards and progress reports and talk to their teachers all through the school year. The MAP program is not intended as a tool for parents to go ape-poo about; it's intended to be used as a tool for school districts to use to identify and correct problems. I'm not saying you, Dilly, but some people don't want their kids 'stressed' by tests because they don't want their kids stressed at school by ANYTHING. Some kids probably come home from school complaining that they're stressed out by being asked to sit up and pay attention and not disrupt the class, and no doubt there are parents who feel the teacher is being entirely heavy handed and unreasonable in asking for such a thing. My kids don't come home stressed out during MAP week, and they're probably urged to do well more than 90% of their classmates.

I just get tired of misinformation being continually be put out by our school district. This article starts out by Ms. Patterson trying to paint a picture that these schools which some people are calling failing schools were singled out by one years' MAP results. This is absolutely false but many people will buy into that so it's a wonderful explanation.

August 31, 2009 at 11:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Sorry you don't believe me, and that is fine. Check with Social Security about benefits that go to school aged children for things like retardation and behavioral difficulties. There is disability income. It does come out of the Social Security pot, the same pot we hope to draw from in retirement someday, and there are abuses to the system. Teachers tell me the forms they have to fill out, when families are trying to get this additional income, are quite lengthy.

August 31, 2009 at 11:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

saturnlady says...

dilly, I have to check it out. I admit that I don't know much about social security benefits other than retirement benefits. I apologize ahead if it is true. No doubt that there are abuses to the system, just like everything else.

I have agreed with your posts most of the time, but I disagree with you about 'stressed' testing scores.

I am just wondering how these kids will do in the middle and high schools if they are failing in the elementary schools. I think the school district has moral obligations to help these kids to be successful in the future in any possible way and I agree with your early posts that parents' involvements are very important. No excuse to be a failure no matter if you are a parent, a school district, a school board or any one. This is just my opinion...

August 31, 2009 at 12:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hcat says...

The thoughts and ideas behind the NCLB act are good and are aimed at making education more effective and quality education more accessible to "disadvantaged children," of whom there are many in St. Joseph, with the goal of improving their lives down the line.

"Disadvantaged children" DO learn at a slower rate than those who are fed regularly by their parents; those whose parents have the luxury of being home with them in the evening and before school and who can actually help them with their homework and answer the questions their curious little minds cause them to ask; those who don't have to worry where they will sleep every night and whether or not their favorite toy will still be in their room when they get home from school that night (wherever that room might be); those whose parents are dead or not living with them for whatever reason; and those whose parents don't make enough money to pay the rent or the water bill or light bill and who learn, as a matter of survival, to hide in the closet and be quiet when the utility guys come to collect the past due on the bill. How can school and what a child does there be important to people (parents and children) who have so many other worries on their minds and in their hearts???

The initial thought behind the NCLB act--and the reason that politicians as diverse as President Bush and Senator Kennedy were willing to work together to make it happen-- was that these kids--the disadvantaged kids--deserve the same quality of education as the Kennedy and Bush kids received. The thoughts behind it were that these kids NEEDED quality education even more than the Kennedy and the Bush kids did because their very lives, their survival, DEPENDED on it. Where the politicians take different roads is in the funding behind it--President Bush didn't think that funding was necessary and most of his party in Congress backed him in that sentiment. Many Democrats (Kennedy included) wanted to put funding with it, but they were in the minority and it didn't pass. I don't know who is right or wrong there--while i know everything takes money, my personal feeling is that teachers should already be teaching in a way that foments quality education and strong, effective education systems. If that were being done, each child would have what he needed as an individual to learn what he needed to learn to score well on every test--MAP included--and to do well in life. Obviously, that is not happening.

August 31, 2009 at 12:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hcat says...

The only chance that the disadvantaged kids in St. Joseph have is a quality education. It is not wrong or cruel to state that disadvantaged children do not learn as quickly as those who have every advantage. All the research and even a quick survey of the people you work with illustrate this. What IS wrong (and cruel) is to know this fact; to hide behind it as a reason for not meeting AYP; to not change what needs to be changed in order to make sure that those kids learn what they need to learn in life, regardless of what their parents are or are not capable of teaching them; and to not have a plan to ensure that every child in your care (because kids in school are in the care of the district in which they attend), regardless of his parents' income/education level/intellectual capacity/involvement with the child's school/own education experience in the SJSD, has what he needs to realize every ounce of his potential and grow up to be the best and most productive adult he can possibly be.

That is where our district is falling down. And that is why it takes 20 tries for them to pass a levy every time they put one on the ballot.

August 31, 2009 at 12:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Saturnlady, no need to apologize. I was shocked when I heard this, also. When you check into this, you might also talk to seasoned teachers who work in the more poverty stricken areas of town. They can tell you about this. I'm not really interested in winning or losing an argument. I just think that before evaluating a situation, it's good to look at as many factors as possible. Apple, I kind of hate to agree with you again [chuckle chuckle], but sad to say, there are winners and losers, which is another thing schools are saddled with--making everybody think they are winners. Struggling does build character whether you win or lose. Hcat, a lot of your post, I agreed with. I think you painted a good picture of what some of our children go through. But, for the life of me I do not understand how you think it's all going to come out very similar in the end.The child with the poor environment will have a great deal more to overcome than a child from a privileged environment, when speaking of academic achievement potential. This is not to say it is an impossible situation, but it will be more difficult for both the teacher and the child, who have so very much to overcome. Hcat, you gave a good and realistic picture of this.

August 31, 2009 at 3:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Heritage, I did not exlain my drug comment clearly. I was not suggesting that Social Security is doling out drugs for the household. I was referring to drugs prescribed for the individual child,not the family. What happens in some instances, is that drugs, which were prescribed to the student for a specific condition, have a street value. Sometimes these drugs are sold to others, instead of being used by the needy child. More money is made in this way. Relating to your concern about the school comment. When a school is "broken up", the networks of the adults and children there, break up,and the people attend different schools. In regard to the "nasty circle," there will be some schools in town, that previously never had to deal with this problem, but now will.

August 31, 2009 at 3:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

as lyndon points out, the MAP and NCLB are not looking for everyone to achieve at an unreasonably high percentage. the "acceptable" range is not exactly rocket science, and it constitutes an attainable goal......

August 31, 2009 at 3:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

The schools have each childs Map testing scores back and the parents can pick them up at their school or the school they attended last year. I got mine today for my children and they are all proficient in all 3 catagories.My children do not come from a rich family we are middle class and we have our own struggles as all familys do.But it did not affect my children on their test.But I see on the results that this is a below basic which the state decribes as the student does not understand the content of the subject for that grade level but our schools pass the children onto the next grade level even though they are having trouble. Can anyone explain this one.So I guess what I am saying does the students grades such as A,B,C,D,AND F,S have any relation to this test.I mean if a teacher gives a child a A in science but the MAP test shows the student is below basic for this grade level how could this be?The two do not match.Maybe I am missing something here.

August 31, 2009 at 5:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

What constitutes the "acceptable range" that Heritage spoke of, in connection with the MAP test? Does that range not raise each year? I am assuming that you, who are championing this test, have seen the test, in order to make your judgment on the fairness of it. MM has seen the results of the tests his children took. Am I right when I assume that those championing the test do have children in school and the parents have seen the results? Would you say that the test lends itself to subjectivity or objectivity, on the part of the evaluator? What constitutes a satisfactory Average Yearly Progress?

August 31, 2009 at 9:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

What exactly is the goal to be reached by 2014?

August 31, 2009 at 10:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

MM, I am not a fan of this test, but I have heard comments made. One of the comments made is that the MAP test is an endurance test. It can last around 30 pages, I am told. Depending upon the age of your child, sticking to the task could be somewhat challenging. Think of it this way...commercial television plans on l0 - 12 minute segments before a commercial break. Most movies concentrate on a change of action within that l0 - 12 minutes. This test is around 30 pages. Children would have to have a high level of concentration, not to become very frustrated.Relating to the difference between the grade card and the MAP test results...When this test first began, it was touted as NOT a test of the child. It was touted as a test of the teacher's effectiveness. On the level of proficiency, those who are for the test, who have studied it, will have to help you with that. I do know that homework counts for some course content grades. A report card could be influenced by this. The MAP is strictly a test. Therefore there could be a discrepency between course grades and the MAP scores.

August 31, 2009 at 10:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Lyndon, in regard to your post about student stress...There is such a thing as a healthy stress and an unhealthy stress. A school, in a poverty area, that has poorer MAP test results, is probably going to put more needless stress on students than a school in a more a more affluent area,where students are EXPECTED to do well and have a history of doing well. That also means there is less stress on the teacher, which will affect the stress levels of the students. Sad to say, steriotypes also play a part. In an affluent area, one generally thinks of college prep, whether all of those students go to college or not. In an area with more poverty, poor and middle class jobs are more expected than college prep. This is not to say that those in a poverty area can't go to college and succeed there. But the road for this student is far more difficult than the road for the student from the affluent area. Self image is also going to play a large part. Some students in poor neighborhoods often go to school with poor positive reinforcement. They "know" they are going to fail. To try is a waste of their time--they think. The student in the more affluent area may have a far superior self image. He expects to grow up and go to college and get a good job. He is not living with the self doubt of his brothern of lower socio economic status. All of these statements are, of course, generalities and do not apply to all children.

August 31, 2009 at 10:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

Hcat, your posts in my view are the most excellent comments about this entire issue. Very nice and well thought out perspectives. There are plenty of schools out there in the country who do not have an issue with this, it is obtainable.
If we do not agree with NCLB and how it measures, while this is very interesting debate from both sides of the fence, the bottom lins is the argument really does not get anywhere in a forum that will eventually challenge the mandate. It belongs in a bonafide and constructive effort compiled into a strong argument to the Federal Court to get it overturned. Until then, the district and its staff need to have a positive viewpoint on it and solutions found to meet the mandate. If the district, staff, and the BOE do not agree, then get it overturned and find a measurment that will satisfy the Fed and get them to buy into it. District staff challenging it through the media while it is still exists and there is no strong argument out there in the court system right now does nothing, only re-enforces the mindset that in my view affects the overall effort and results from that effort.

September 1, 2009 at 1:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple,
I do not think no child is Stupid,Do they have some issues at home are they disavantaged? Maybe. But the school still should be teaching our communitys children. I have said before some of our countrys most disavantaged people have grown up to be some of the most powerful people in our country.And personally I am not worried about the schools outside of St Joseph Missouri.I still have a hard time undestanding the relation between these map test and the grade the teachers are giving to our children.My children map test were in line with the grades the teachers give them, but to say if the schools who has not met for 2 years and the children per the way the test reads if the are below basic how can these children not be getting the help they need to improve at school?And are the childrens grades in line with the test score.I personally have not seen the test but I will ask to see it this year but it would seem to me that it would be along the lines of what the chilldren learn in school for their respected grade level that they are in.So if this is the case I would think that there is a issue at the school and there as well maybe issues for the children at home.But look all children deserve the same education offered to them no matter where they live or how they grow up disadvantaged or not disavantaged.

September 1, 2009 at 7:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

http://www.thompson.com/public/newsbr...

i have often posted this article regarding dee beck and her systematic attack on NCLB, falsifying scores, omitting failing results, etc , throughout her tenure as the state education secretary.

reading this article and its excuse making on the part of missouri's top educators sounds like a script for our own district.

it is axiomatic that if this state did not enact the strictures defined by NCLB for schools for such a lengthy period, the entire state must be in disarray. Dee Beck put the teachers and students of this state in a position similar to having to stand at the starting line and count to ten after the gun goes off .....

yes, apple, this state has some lousy schools and was headed by a corrupt woman who systematically avoided federal law. one of my parent's most frequent exhortations to us children when we griped about something was.... " a poor worker often blames his tools.".

john is right, don't like the law? do something about it. in the meanwhile, stop whining and making excuses.

i agree that children of low socioeconomic status have different learning strategies, diligent. perhaps you should point that out to the superintendent, who did NO research on school size ( one of the most influential parameters in success for children of poverty) when she wanted to build a school over twice the generally accepted size for the student population on the devil's backbone.

September 1, 2009 at 8:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hcat says...

oh apple so quick to include "stupid kids" and "horrible schools" and "a very bad measurment system," without a sign of "bad teachers," "poor administrators," "crappy division of school populations coupled with inequitable distribution of kids," "poor parenting skills," or "lack of parent involvement." tsk tsk. Have you learned nothing from our little lessons???

Maybe it's everything combining to work against us. Missouri has one of the highest rates of poverty in the country and one of the lowest rankings in terms of educational excellency. In spite of those things and in spite of the fact that the MAP test shows we are not doing right by our kids in terms of education, Missouri school children, overall, have made progress and indeed are a point or two above the national average in all areas except for Writing. The unfortunate flipside of that is that the majority of students in Missouri show only a "Basic" grasp of concepts in each of these areas with roughly 20% to 35% of all Missouri students showing "Proficiency" in the basic areas of academic achievement. (http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/...)

From my viewpoint, this illustrates that our teachers are teaching, but because there is so much "hubbub" around NCLB and the MAP test, they are not teaching the way good teachers would like to teach. In other words, they most likely are teaching to the test (and who wouldn't do what they had to do to keep their jobs) and not giving the comprehensive, awe-inspiring lessons that make kids want to know more about the world--which in turn increases the likelihood that they will reach "Proficiency." Proficiency infers a combination of "book learnin,'" hands-on experiential learning that comes from the classroom and home, and analytical and logical ability to parse out the good answers and solutions from the bad that only comes with practice and the experience of seeing someone else analyze and solve problems on a regular--daily/hourly/split-second--basis (you really only get that at home). All of these things need to be present and accessible to children if we want them to go beyond the Basic grasp of Basic concepts. If all of those things are not accessible to a child--and if teachers feel confused about how and what they are to teach because the administration at the local, state and national levels are unsure of how things should happen, then kids are not going to do well on their stupid tests (someone mentioned these were to measure teacher effectiveness and that is true) and they are not going to receive a "quality education."

September 1, 2009 at 9:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hcat says...

By the way, apple, I am not advocating that we allow parents to abrogate all responsibility for educating their children, nor am I saying that the school is responsible for teaching children everything they need to know. As a society, our responsibility is to ensure that kids have access to a quality education (the idea behind NCLB) and that they have what they need from the schools to grasp what they are able of that education.

dillygent--I have no preconceived notion that "it's all going to come out very similar in the end." I do believe, however, that our education system is the only chance many children have to ever even come close to realizing their potential (as I stated). Potential is an iffy thing--some people can realistically shoot for the moon and hit it; others can shoot for the moon and never leave the ground. The point is that we need to help kids realize that they can shoot for the moon.

September 1, 2009 at 9:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

read my post of 8:16 am........

a corrupt and enabling state government which created a veritable petrie dish on how NOT to promote an environment of high achieving schools. a recipe for low achievement was concocted by beck, don't raise the bar, but rather lead the charge for mediocrity by running up the white flag of defeatism.

this woman was either a partisan political anti-NCLB nutcase who took it on herself to thwart federal law, or an inept administrator who failed to comprehend the reporting system and its vital aspect for improvement.

either way, this state is completely behind the eightball due in part from beck's actions

September 1, 2009 at 10:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple,
There are no "STUPID" children!!!!!!!!!!!.I really wish you would lose that word from your vocabulary.I really wish you would pick as different word to use in your post.Or is this you education level?And I will answer your damn question we have some of the very worst administrators at 10th & Felix these people are just waiting for the children to fail for they do not have to worry about children tranfering from schools who have not met for 2 years in a row and causing them issues.This came right out of the mouth of Mrs Cheri Patterson.As I said my children were not born with a silver spoon in their mouths and my children on the results I picked up yesterday they are proficent in all three of the catagories on the test.So my theroy is the test is here it is a federal mandate if we like it or not but the children if they are learning in school should be able to pass this test I would think. Are there children with issues at home sure there are but I would like to think school is a place for the children to feel safe and learn.I personally do not think being poor stops a child from learning I grew up poor and I did just fine for myself and for my family.And as I stated before I could care a less about the rest of Missouri just St Joseph Missouri scores and our communitys children.Apple lose that word stupid you like so much.

September 1, 2009 at 11:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

notrealsmart says...

Why is it the school Districts fault for the low test scores? Learning starts at home. I don't think it is a coincidence that the low test scores are in the more run down communities. I'm sure you can take the best teachers in the district and put them in those lower test schools and the result will be the same! By the way I live in a run down community and see it everyday!!Proudly Edison Eagle class of 1983

September 1, 2009 at 11:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Lets continue to think these are the children from the run down side of town that will really help them learn.It is just as much of the districts fault as it is the parents fault no matter how you look at it.There are programs out to help these parents such as parents as teachers and maybe they do not take advantage of them but the administrator know these children have it harder than some so go the extra mile to help them. Is this not why they became administrators and teachers?

September 1, 2009 at 12:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

notrealsmart says...

They put programs in place but it is the administrators and teachers fault that these parents do not take advantage of them??? I'm sure most faculty do go above and beyond their responsibilities. They also have a responsibility to their own family!!!

September 1, 2009 at 12:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hcat says...

apple--several answered the question--some before you even asked it. Try actually reading the postings of others instead of simply reiterating your own obtuse viewpoint ad nauseum.

It doesn't have to be one thing--the cause of most complex problems is rarely one event/weakness/issue. To believe that it is as simple as "pick one" is ignorant, obtuse, and poorly informed on your part.

Education is a partnership between the schools (teachers, staff and administration), the community (citizens and voters, businesses), parents, and children. When one of these components fails to meet its obligation, they all fail and the education system falls down. If the failure is recognized and the other components are able to accomodate the weakness of the failing component, then they can begin to succeed again. It takes time to recognize failure--and it is rarely the failure of only one partner--so the answer is "L. ALL OF THE ABOVE--and then some."

Let me also take this opportunity to remind you that placing blame is an immature response to problem solving. It simply doesn't matter whose fault it is--we are all to blame. Now is the time to figure out where the weaknesses are and repair them. That takes a plan. Success requires planning.

What is the plan? And don't tell me "to build another school." That is only one component of a viable plan for success. What are the other components to make teachers more effective, classrooms more conducive to learning, and students more proficient?

Answer quickly, grasshopper. I'm still holding my breath waiting for you to answer all the other questions people have asked you and I don't know how much longer I can hold it.

September 1, 2009 at 12:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

ufc08 says...

I have noticed that one certain person that always post negative and rude comments always has thumbs down. I'm glad this person is not my kids teacher. I don't know the answer to the problems with the schools. I personally would like to see new schools built in St. Joe. I also think the northeast shouldn't be where the first ones are built. That may be where the population is moving although they knew when they built there that there was no schools there. Maybe the developers and the home owners should be charged a higher tax rate to have a school built just for them. I'm waiting for apples negative reply, that means I said something right.

September 1, 2009 at 1:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

it is important to note that 12 of 18 elementary schools did not meet ayp...... and they are not all from "poor areas".

September 1, 2009 at 1:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

238er says...

ufc08 - on the last bond issue where do you think the first school was going to be built?

September 1, 2009 at 1:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

gunner81 says...

Where is the parent's accountability. The kids are left basically on their own to fend for themselves and many have no discipline whatsoever. Then the parents get upset when their kids do poorly or get in trouble at school. Typical left-wing radical wipe our rear-end for us mentality. Do your job at home before you go blaming others for your poor parenting.

September 1, 2009 at 2:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hcat says...

apple--takes one to know one, and I must say I believe you to be, yet again, in violation of the user rules as defined above:

Comments that threaten someone or degrade them on the basis of gender, race, class, national origin, religion or disability will be removed.

Comments containing abusive, vulgar or sexually-oriented language will be removed.

The word "stupid" is both abusive and connotative of a disability. Whether it's your child or not, you do not have the right to verbally abuse children (or anyone else for that matter) by repeatedly calling them "stupid."

What an abusive pot-stirrer you are. I hope with all my heart that you are truly not a teacher in our schools.

September 1, 2009 at 3:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

238er says...

stupid /Ë stupÉd, Ë styu/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [stoo-pid, styoo] Show IPA adjective, -er, -est, noun
Use stupid in a Sentence
See web results for stupid
See images of stupid
adjective 1. lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.
2. characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless: a stupid question.
3. tediously dull, esp. due to lack of meaning or sense; inane; pointless: a stupid party.
4. annoying or irritating; troublesome: Turn off that stupid radio.
5. in a state of stupor; stupefied: stupid from fatigue.
6. Slang. excellent; terrific.

noun 7. Informal. a stupid person.

hcat, 'fraid not.

September 1, 2009 at 4:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

apple, i think you need to check some of those factoids you are throwing around regarding NCLB and the problems across the state and nation. you are incorrect.

there are no graduated rates for property tax according to valuation of your home. no one pays a higher property tax rate, but a higher proportion based on valuation. you are incorrect.

yes, hcat, i have known people in education and in sports who habitually call others "stupid". it is an odious habit.

September 1, 2009 at 4:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hcat says...

I know the definition of "stupid," 238er. I find it to be one of the most destructive words in the English language. To quote heritage, calling people--especially children--"stupid" is "an odious habit."

I don't believe that heritage and I are the only people who find the use of the word offensive--especially when contextualized as it is in statements made by apple. I can't believe the NewsPress hasn't banned her by now for some of the offensive comments she types. I suppose that is indicative of the fall of the written word as art in our society.

My mother used to say that only uneducated, ill-bred people needed to resort to using words like "stupid" (or other such words) to express their thoughts. After which she would promptly assign whichever one of us used the odious word to make a list of 100 words that better described our thoughts. Dang--and here I thought my mom was the stupidest woman alive. Little did I know...

September 1, 2009 at 5:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

Apple, you hate NCLB, then do something about it. Get it overturned. The last posts you made truly show what kind of character you have. Negative on everything and only here to get people wound up. HCAT is right about you.

September 1, 2009 at 6:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple no wonder people in this town do not want to build a school for the people in the northeast side of town if they all act as you do and think we all in the rest of town are just STUPID you all will have a very long wait for a school in the northeast.Now I would really like to tell where you could go H_ _ _ and what I really think of you since you now have stooped to a level of calling children stupid but unlike you I will follow the rules.And the fake 238er you and apple would make a great couple.I also kinda have to agree with ufc08 this end of town should not be the first part of town for a new school these people knew when they moved there that there was not a school in that area.Apple and 238er I hope neither one of you are teachers or have anything to do in our school with the way you all act.Again APPLE no children are STUPID!!!!!!!!.Maybe you should have taken your 2 week break and people would not be jumping on you about calling people and now children names. Grow up.

September 1, 2009 at 6:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

insideout says...

My mother also taught me...
"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words shall never hurt me."

Apple creates enough turmoil on his/her own and I don't generally feel a need to butt in but come on folks. For lack of a better way of putting it, the use of the word "stupid", is, well...stupid. We all get that.

However, I think there might be just one, two, or maybe even three bigger issues in the community to tackle at the present moment. If you're offended, then there's a couple of easy solutions...don't read his/her post or step away from the computer.

September 1, 2009 at 7:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

justsayin says...

I'd like to see apple concede a point just once. I have hope. I read an apology from the round red one on another post.

Besides, it looks like the rest of the posters are actually discussing the important issues while they beat on apple. Multi-taskers are great people!

September 1, 2009 at 8:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

localgirl says...

"Oh last thought, yes some kids are stupid. Make you feel better, they have lower IQ's, slow learners, special, challenged, have a learning disability - differant words say the same thing -"

apple - Is this really your "last thought"? Why would you do this to yourself? I was under the impression for quite sometime that you thought of yourself as someone with understanding and an advocate for leadership. Have you made so many comments that you no longer reflect on your own words?

This isn't really you. It can't be. I certainly understand the need to be heard, but to classify people with learning disabilities as "stupid" is a reckless use of the potential impact of your own intellect. WHY? What gain or advancement do you create for your passion for education to make such a statement?

Do yourself a favor and honor your own gifts. In doing so, you might find that we all have short-comings. These short-comings are not evidence or proof, but our own understanding of the work required to reach our potential.

I think better of you than this remark apple. I really do. I hope you do too.

September 1, 2009 at 8:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

238er says...

mm, actually some people do meet the definition of stupid. Your political correctness amazes me.

Can you answer the questions I asked ucf08?

September 1, 2009 at 8:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

238er,
In all of this I seem to actually not remember and I can admit this unlike other people here cannot admit when they are either wrong or mistaken.But I would have hoped it was the one to replace Neely and Hall since Hall is in HORRIBLE shape and does have mold issues.But my gut tells me it would have been the one to the northeast.As I stated I did grow up in the southend of town and have seen how our system(school district,and city) works thru the years and how other parts of town have been put on the back burner vers the northeast side of town.Look the city has and the district has alway followed the money and bent backwards for this area of town for several reasons.You may not agree but take a good look and you will see.I do not see them putting alot of effert into the shopping area where Menards is or doing as much infrastructure work in other areas of town.You know one could say the southeast end of town has grown as well and Skaith and Pickett will not be able to handle many more children as well.I am not saying we do not need new schools but Schools like Neely,Hall,Humbolt,ect should be replaced first. The public that bought homes in this area were they promised a school?Did they not know when they bought homes in this area there was not a school?We could go on and on.And as I have stated to Apple and I will to you as well.No children are "STUPID"get that in your heads.You 2 must be the most cold hearted people when it comes to children with learning disabilities,or children that are handicap.It is just wrong to refer to these children as if they are stupid.You all are probably the type that laugh at these children and adults that have these kind of issues.You all just make me sick.And it is not politically correct to do this to these children.

September 1, 2009 at 9:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

238er says...

mm, I live in the real world where some people are smart and some are stupid. This is a multifaceted term. Some people are not always smart and some are not always stupid. I know smart docs and stupid docs. (Sorry it always seems like we pick on docs) Some are smarter in more areas and some are not. Ask me to really fix my car and I fall off the scale really quick. Ask me to do other things that are extremely complicated and I can excel. Generally I tend to be smart (just can't type sometimes).

My recollection is that the Carden Park school was going to be built first but that the district felt it had to lock up the land in the NE or not get it at all. Also I believe there was going to be an addition to Skaith.

The development with the Menards is another issue. The reasons for the lack of progress on the development is lengthy and not an appropriate topic for this forum. It does now have a TIF. Timing and other issues played into the slow progress as well as the available size of the land area. I do like shopping at Menards though as they carry a different selection of products than the other home centers.

September 1, 2009 at 9:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Heritage, right on in questioning the superintendent wanting to build an over-sized school at Carden Park. It would have been horrible for the children. I'm still not a fan of the MAP. I never will look at it as good, but as John said...we have it so we accept it for now. However, there is another area that has not been explored. If the elementary schools have block schedules, which allow for a class level professional development lesson, for one and a half hours once a week, then why is our district continuing to have early dismissals for professional development? Another question I have...why do elementary and secondary schools have block schedules at all? In the elementary school[keep in mind, one day a week], "specials", meaning, Art, Music, and PE, happen back-to-back to allow this professional development time. On the high school level, scheduling is done, where classes l,3,5,and 7 will meet one day, alternating with classes 2,4,6, and 8 the next day. Whatever happened to repetition and reinforcement? I would think that regular daily classes would be crucial to the improvement of skills and for improvement on the MAP tested areas. Another thing about all of this professional development...was the same agency, who requires all this professional development, the same agency that got caught by the Feds for cheating? I don't know anything about k-12, but not too long ago, college funding for Missouri,was in the bottom 3 in the country.

September 1, 2009 at 10:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple, you are a disgrace to our community when you can stopp to the level you have. As far as growing up in the sothend of town I learned to respect thing alot more than people born with a silver spoon in their mouths.I learned that when I moved from that area of town I would always remember how it was growing up and treat everybody the same.I can tell you that If I grew up calling people or other kids names as you seem to want to do I would have been picking my butt up off of the ground.Apple by you doing what you are doing you are showing your true colors and you are not helping you part of this community get a school or anything from the voters.Oh boy Apple the southside got 1 school and your area of town has gotten everything else.Now deal without a school because if you all out there think this way like I have said you will be waiting a long time for a schoolunless you all can be like jeannie and wiggle your noses instead of sticking them up in the air.

September 1, 2009 at 10:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple,
I do not Hate anyone, And for the people in the northeast making more money than me well lets put it this way I can hang in their.I am from the southside and I no longer live there but will support the southside whinners as you call us.Keep your tax money apple the southend never sees it anyway.Heck apple I could be a southsider transplanted into your neighborhood. You are correct this end of town probably will not get a school because of people like me but did you ever think you brought it one yourselves.Have a good night apple it was nice to get your goat.

September 1, 2009 at 10:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

"since the property levels are higher in the Northeast they do indeed pay a higher tax rate than most in the community since most of the funding of the schools comes from property tax" -

apple. you do not pay a higher Tax Rate of your home's value than someone with a home which is valued at less. the rate is the same.

if we had a graduated property tax wherein you paid a higher percentage of your property value then you could claim to pay a higher tax rate. as it is you just choose to live in a more expensive home.

i think you might also mean property values, not levels.......

perhaps an econ 101 class would help.

September 1, 2009 at 11:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Lets start with infrastructure.Take a look that is not to hard to see.You talk about the southend having the newest school you are wrong Parkway is the newest school.

September 2, 2009 at 6:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple not all of these roads lead to new housing.Sewers are kept up.Schools are in better shape that are there. Lake Contrary School for years for example has trailers out back even though levy had been passed to take care of this situation.It took years to get the addition to the building.We could go on and on.

September 2, 2009 at 7:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

i reiterate that you, apple, said "a higher tax rate". that is false.

you pay more in taxes than someone who has a less expensive home, you do not pay a higher tax rate. this is a simple economic principle which you fail to comprehend.

for example, on federal income tax rates, the wealthy are taxed at a higher rate. there is a HUGE difference in the two concepts.

September 2, 2009 at 7:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

lamplighter says...

Name calling, character attacks, northeast vs southside arguments, taunts and disrespect are prevalent in these posts. What good is this accomplishing? Is this making everyone feel better?
Apple, calling people haters and children stupid is rude and unnecessary. What useful purpose does it serve? It only inflames readers and doesn't sdd any value or persuasion to your arguments.
Then again, maybe that's exactly what you want to do...insult people and stir the pot just for amusement..
Thanks to everyone with positive and constructive posts.

September 2, 2009 at 9:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple,
I will get my chip off of my shoulders come November the 3rd when I vote no after voting yes/yes the last time. I will continue to vote no till I see change and real change for progress in all areas of town.And I see change on the board and a couple of admin positions.And if anybody does have a idea and it does not go in line with what the district wants they do not listen so how can there be a constructive dialog with the current people in charge.Apple I have said nothing that you are willing to admit to, all you see is your area of town where as I see the whole community and the schools and the children not just the southend. You are selfish person and a person that likes to degrade other people because of their social standings and or wealth. But it is a step lower when you start your rants on calling children Stupid.When November comes and we still do not have a operating levy passed and we are nowhere near building new schools we will see then if the district is willing to work with the community and listen to all areas of town and work for all areas of town.You all knew when you moved to the northeast end of town for you could maintain your social standing that there was not a school there so deal with it.Did someone promise this area a school? Please answer that Apple.Also if the levy does pass thank you for this area of towns money for the communitys school because it will be a long time till one is biult in this area of town with people like you opening your mouths and degrading the rest of St Joseph will be one of the reasons why.

September 2, 2009 at 9:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

238er says...

mm, it is not so much of a keeping up the sewers issue as the sewers are newer (and not combined) and need less maintenance. Wait, gee, isn't that an argument for a new building????

September 2, 2009 at 10:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

238er if you live in the southend of town you would be able to look at both area that are being talked about and know what has been done in both areas of town and what has not been.But that is right you are not really from the southend of town and have not lived there for over 40 years and have no idea what has happened in the past.Southend needs to have Hyde replaced as well as other schools,Humbolt, Hall, Neely,Noyes,want me to go on and on these should be taken care of being replaced before any more are built.Heck lets throw in there Benton although I would not want to see all of that History go so let just refurbish Benton,as well as Central and Layfette,there is a lot of history in these schools.See where this could going,repair and replace the ones we have now before we build one that is not even there.And as far as the other issues Apple asked I just thought I would touch on a few things other areas of town do not get.Hey if there is a pot hole in any area of town(Northend, Southend, Eastend and someone from the other area to the northeast has one which one do you think is going to get repaired first.This hold true for the schools as well.Like I told apple I no longer live in the southend but will stand behind this area because I have seen the thing that have been or have not been done over the years.Heck as I told her I may even live in her fabulous area of town.Back to the Map testing it is here and we need to make sure our children are learning in school and can pass this test.Or lobby to have it done away with.

September 2, 2009 at 11:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

does anyone believe That will happen? the impulse control of a toddler........

September 2, 2009 at 4:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Talking about new schools is somewhat unnecessary due to the fact they're still trying to get an operating levy passed. The second largest employer in St. Joseph is Triumph Foods. Where are the majority of these workers living? Somehow, I doubt they are in the northeast part of town. I would be more inclined to think they might be in the south and west sections of town. If that were true, it would tend to point to an unfortunate fact, that maybe closing Everett and Neely might have been a little premature. Could Webster have taken overflow from Everett and Neely (if they were still operational)? I am not a proponent of opening a moldy building, which I understand Neely is. However, to my knowledge, Everett wasn't built over water, as Neely was. I think the west side of town needs to be served, but not with a king-sized building, at Carden Park. To be lost in the masses is not what these children need. Perhaps someone could answer this question... How much time does the school board get to make a judgment on a school district issue, that the administration wants passed? Are they sent preparatory notes before the school board meeting or is business just decided at the meeting, itself? There is always talk about a new school board. What constitutes a good school board member? I used to think a retired teacher could be good, but I can't say I've seen a retired teacher distinguish himself or herself. What type of backgrounds do you people feel would be beneficial for Board members to have come from, in order to be effective on our school board?

September 2, 2009 at 4:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

lamplighter says...

Apple, Thank you for toning the punch back down. You are getting a fair amount of insult as well..and I realize that your position on these posts is a minority one..that can't be an easy stand to take, but regardless, people are very sensitive on this issue and they don't view themselves as haters or children as stupid and take those words as insults. The district administration needs to not take a defensive posture with the voter..that will be hard to do, but is ultimately the best thing for the community. They are right on some issues, but unfortunately they are public servants and answer to the taxpayer, so right or wrong..they have an obligation to answer unpleasant questions when asked by a voter..and unpleasant criticism comes with the job when taking the public's money.

Personally I believe the district should put the check register on the website for people to see, they should offer online forms for public comment before the BOE meetings( the city council allows for signing in your name when standing to address the council during public comment), all information regarding transfers to any school should be avavilable on the website ( excepting names of students and their families, building inspector reports..all should be available on the website.
These are a few of my solutions to the growing PR problem..and no sarcasm intended, please tell me a few of your solutions.

September 2, 2009 at 4:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

justsayin says...

Exactly 1 hour and 10 minutes.

September 2, 2009 at 4:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Apple, the 4:51 post was a good one. The reason I keep asking about the school board is largely because I think it is over-rated as a decision-making body. They do not know what's going on, daily, in the St.Joseph School District. They only get an overview prepared for them by whom???The administration. If the Board does not get into the schools, they must only go by what they are told on Board meeting nights.Their only value becomes the evaluation of the administrators, whom many would say have been controlling them, for some time. I am interested in various reactions to my block schedule comment. I am not a fan of it. I think it takes away teaching time that many students need. For instance, Math, English, Science...all of those course areas need reinforcement. I don't think students get good reinforcement. The teachers may try, but the block schedule gets in the way. Imagine being a typical struggling math student, who may only get math twice a week, but is expected to learn as well as if he were having math classes 5 days per week. THAT was an administrative decision. I would think AYP would be very difficult to make this way, and would leave teachers and students frustrated.

September 2, 2009 at 5:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple
I can take it.Apple I agree with some of your post you made at 4:51 imagine that,but to say the board is a volutary position and they do not have time then why did they volunteer to do this job. You take the good with the bad and somehow you address the issues in front of you they are not going to go away.These people need to at this point go to all of the elementary schools and face the public and answer these hard questions that they will get.They cannot sweep it under the table or ignore it any longer it is not going to help their cause at all meaning new schools or even a operating levy.

September 2, 2009 at 7:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

MM, Maybe the Board needs to learn where the schools are, first. I seriously would be interested to know if they can locate all of their school buildings, that they administer over. I would also be interested in knowing, of the schools they visited in the last year, how many times they actually went there, how long they stayed, who they talked to, why they were there, and what impressions they left with. Wouldn't you, MM ?

September 2, 2009 at 8:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

yougottabekiddingme says...

Anyone see this?

http://learfield.typepad.com/missouri...

September 2, 2009 at 8:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

kidder...... WHOA.

September 2, 2009 at 9:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

insideout says...

Does anyone wonder where some of the money to oppose the last ballot might have came from?

Where were Mr. Shields and/or his posse during the last election?

These are folks that are supposed to be for educating our youth and progressing our school systems...explain to me how a district that has concerns over the passage or failure of an operating levy every five years can concentrate on improving the educational system.

September 2, 2009 at 9:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

You never know what people's motives are for anything. The best you can do is comment about your observations. I would imagine some people who run as candidates for the School Board have agendas. Some DO run for a certain status and power. Some DO run in hopes of making a positive difference. We can only observe and guess what is going on inside each of them. To those who do sincerely want to make things better...you must study and stand up for what you believe is right and not cave in to intimidating personalities who may be on the Board with you. If you do not, you DO become part of the problem. Somehow I don't think expecting Board members to know where their schools are, and to be expected to visit them, is unreasonable. How can you possibly be a worthwhile Board member without effort? If you are not willing to put forth the effort that goes along with the job, then it is not the time in your life that you should be running for office. Obviously, I am not talking about Dennis Snethen, as he is proving his willingness to be open and helpful.

September 2, 2009 at 10:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Apple, you make a good point about not randomly throwing the Board out. I just want to know what they really do. I think their job should be to be the final authority. The administration recommends, and the Board either passes or denies. In order to be able to do that, the Board must also know something about the school district, its curriculum and its buildings.

September 2, 2009 at 10:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Dillygent1, Yes I would like to know this as well, but I am sure we will never get this answer from any of them.And Yougottabekiddingme and Heritage I wonder what this means for our schools.Iam refering to the web page and the info that was there. I wonder if this could be a postion for the school district in St Joseph he maybe going to.There just might be some ties there with these people.One could read alot into this and none of it would be good for our school and the community as a whole.

September 2, 2009 at 10:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple, I think your numbers are a little jigh I am sure after all of this mess people know who is on the board of education.I could take you to the front door of all of the schools in this town and I am sure people know who their principle is and people know who is on the city council.Your a little to high on your percentages.

September 2, 2009 at 11:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple,
Shield it tied to the task force as well as Heartland.Good ole boys club hard at work.This article also stated this guy had a new position in November this after the election apple.Something smells with this.

September 2, 2009 at 11:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple, I think there will be a large turn out for this levy issue and therewill be a large turn out for the board members election as well I will take your bet.And how do you know ACE has failed and that they are not going strong and working on other things?I personally do not know so if you are not involved with them than how could you know?

September 2, 2009 at 11:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple this task force has one issue on their minds and it is not for the good of the whole community.Heartland just want this school to the mnortheast because anybody they hire from the oputside will live in this area and it will be hard for them to attract future employess if there is not a school close to these homes.This is just one reason for Heartland to be invilved. Tell me I am wrong.This is a money trail and it lead back to our district following the money trail and the people it is tied to.They are not for the whole community and that is it in a nut shell.Politics hard at work with this group.Really I personally believe they should have went with the proposal ACE put forward this group As from what I see is for the community as a whole.Another smoke screen from our district and trying to pull the wool over the communitys eyes.These are my opinions and beliefs apple like it or not.

September 2, 2009 at 11:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Aple where did you get the 250 signiture number from?I do not recall anybody telling you.Rememmber do your reasearch first.

September 2, 2009 at 11:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple, I am not in the neely or the webster areas for the hundredth time I have told you this.I just do not think what they done to these neighborhoods,children and familys was right.Ok apple I will give that one to you I do not think the northeast should come before the rest of St Joseph.And you say the levy has nothing to do about biulding school I seem to rememmber the people in charge asking their attorney to look into spending the levy money to biuld a school with it.

September 3, 2009 at 12:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple,
Did you not know there was no schools in your area when you bought your home?
Also I have not said your area does not need a school just that the other areas schools need attention first.Have you seen Hall,Humbolt,Hyde,ect,ect?And I also stated that if the people in your area have this attitude like you do the general public will never biuld you a school. I also stated that the current people in charge are not trusted or respected by the public and have not done things right which you personally have admitted to.If you really want a school you would be for change Downtown because these people will be the major reason one is held back from your area of town with new people in charge working with the public to come up with a plan that is put to the people with the public support.Also a long term plan without the sunset claus.The biggest stumbling point is the board and the administration and their lack of skills to communicate and the arrogance toward the public.Come on apple open your eyes to the facts about downtown and if you really want a school in your area then there is going to have to be change.Remember you told all of us parents when it came to redistricting change was hard but we had to accept it. Did you not?

September 3, 2009 at 7:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

yougottabekiddingme says...

A couple of things:

First - apple, no one here has a duty to respond to your questions so as I stated before, if you wanted to know how many signatures we had, all you had to do is come to one of our meetings or the SB meeting where they were publicly presented. Time to get over it.

Second - ACE did not fail in every way. You are a hateful human being who I imagine sits in a dark room and finds reasons to critisize every single person who does not think like you. You proclaim to make oodles of money and be so important but I am really thinking you are more of a legend in your own mind than anything else. I personally commend anyone who tries to get involved and make a difference in the community. You on the other hand choose to throw stones.

Third - I have verified that a KC news organization was looking into the issue and considering tying the story into the St Jo schools as well. I do not know when and if they will run the story. News organizations drop or put off stories all the time. Get over that one too.

Lastly - the main problem with Chris Roepe being the campaign manager is that it solidifies the heartland/task force/SB connection. I am guessing if he does well, he will have a job working under Charlie at Heartland in the PR department - but who cares. The point is that he works for Charlie, who works for Heartland, who has been pulling the strings for the TF. People in this town are suspect of the connection anyways wondering if there are any hidden agendas. Bad strategy for the TF in my opinion given the way that this town feels about Heartland.

September 3, 2009 at 8:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

yougottabekiddingme says...

Apple, H gets thumbs up because people like her. She adds substance to the argument, she backs up her rhetoric with action. You, on the other hand just rehash the same old stuff and try to bait people into getting into an argument. Sad, you should seek psychological help.

September 3, 2009 at 8:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

yougottabekiddingme says...

Apple - the public has the right to demand transparency from public organizations and elected officials - they do work for us and operate because of taxpayer funds. The same does not apply to other organizations or private individuals - it is not a tit for tat scenario.

ACE had talked to many many people from all parts of the community, we have members who were previously on the TF but defected because of the workings of the TF. We have members who are involved in various groups throughout the city so we can keep our finger on the pulse of the perceptions, desires and needs of the community. We have accomplished much more than you who seems to do nothing but sit and type in this forum so I am not sure that you are in a position to be critisizing us but I am sure that won't stop you.

H didn't respond to you because she is not REQUIRED to respond to you - just as I am not required to respond to you. I am not sure why you think you are in a position to demand answers from anyone here.

September 3, 2009 at 9:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

the number of signatures we had on our petition is a matter of public record, as the petition was presented at the BOE meeting. call the school offices and i am sure they will answer your question, apple. i don't answer you because you get so full of righteous indination when i don't.......LOL

another poster said some time ago that one of the reasons i don't answer is because if i am 1% wrong you jump on it. since the quarterback issue i refuse to engage you. irrational, unreasonable and irrelevent comments have prompted me to ignore you most of the time, which sadly inflames you even further. i can't win, , and (here's the kicker) i don't CARE.

September 3, 2009 at 9:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

yougottabekiddingme says...

Apple, if we were in the shadows with you, you would know it.

September 3, 2009 at 9:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Yes apple it is going to be a blast with you for the next few months.I have to say I personally thing the board to follow the wrong group.This TF is Hearland and politics.Heartland has a rep in town as being called Heartless hospital.They are greedy and are not the type of orginazation that likes any competition they will buy everything up and create a monopoly before they allow anything else in town to compete with them.And since they are tied to the TF so strongly they will be running it the same way.I will throw my support Behind ACE because they are for what is right by our children,school, familys ect,ect unlike this TF.I hope they like throwing money away because 200,000 dollars is a lot to waste.Maybe they should have just donated the money to the district to biuld you all a school to the northeast.

September 3, 2009 at 11:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

but i DO know who you are...........

September 3, 2009 at 1:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

ufc08 says...

Apple I have seen you state several times elementary schools have no sports programs. For many years I have helped coached and also played for my elementary schools basketball teams, so yes they do have sports in elementary schools.

September 3, 2009 at 1:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

justsayin says...

Sway public opinion? With the newspaper equivalent of a whore 'em score 'em chatroom? I almost wet myself on that one. Hehehe.

September 3, 2009 at 2:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

justsayin'...... bwahahahaha.......

i give you 100 thumbs up!

September 3, 2009 at 2:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Hearitage,
I bet that has got her thinking since you said you know who she is.

September 3, 2009 at 3:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Apple, it's been a while since we discussed the School Board, but if you can assure me that the school board visits all of the schools regularly, and talks to employees far away from their principals, I will not continue to harp on this issue. As far as the connection between Heartland and the school district, politically, I can see an advantage to the connection. Notice I said, "politically," not "ethically." Much of the land along Riverside Road is owned by Heartland, MWSU, and the Herzog's. By getting Heartland, that would allow the school district to have the support of the first and third largest employers in St. Joseph. Apple, you'll remember we have previously discussed the staff supporting the tax issue. That would make a pretty good combination. If they decided to sell the Herzogs on helping and if Herzogs went along with it [and I have no idea how they feel about that], it would be a pretty potent combination of numbers and finances. I believe Randy Herzog may be pretty active on Republican causes. I don't know anything about ACE, except that I think it is trying to do the right thing for the community, but I doubt it could produce the organized numbers that the school district and Heartland could generate. Relating to your "inflammatory" comments...I just see an issue and express it. I do not try to overstate it.

September 3, 2009 at 4:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

yougottabekiddingme says...

justsayin - I like that one too. Apple has an distorted view of the effect on public opinion that this forum has.

September 3, 2009 at 4:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

diligent, that makes sense. the numbers could be there. however, there is a vast difference in what emloyees might Say and what they might Do behind the red/white/blue striped curtain. i have agreed with you all along that the district should be able to "elect itself" with the numbers they have.

otoh, lets not forget that there was a fairly high turnout in that area in the last effort, and a woefully low turnout elsewhere. i expect to see that change radically in the next round.

i have also said often that if that riverside road group "inflicts" this tax on the "rest" of st joseph it will create a gulf between the haves and the have-nots which will never be repaired. don't underestimate the exasperation of the common people in joetown.

i appreciate you making a distinction between politics and ethics. i am naive enough to still hope that those two terms are not mutually exclusive.

September 3, 2009 at 5:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple,
You are wrong again our school has a basketball team that practices after school last year and I cannot speak about this year but last year for sure.As you twll us check your fact first before you open your mouth.

September 3, 2009 at 8:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple,
First I have never told you to shut your mouth.It will be a cold day in H before I will ever listen to you.But thats right you want to post all of the time and not listen but you want us to shut our mouth and listen to a degrading low life like you.You are a discrace to our community and to your own neighborhood.You are showing your true colors again Apple.

September 3, 2009 at 8:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

I hope any board member reading this or administrator read the post apple has been posting with name calling and her actions in her post. These are the type of people that support the board and administration.I would not want any help from people like this.Apple I still think if you are not part of the district you are on the TF and we are hitting nerves in you.Poor Apple.

September 3, 2009 at 8:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Heritage, What people do behind the curtain, when it's closed, was the point I was trying to make to Apple. I agree with your comment about the haves and the have nots. But sometimes I am afraid that we common folk are kind of left out of the equation. Somehow I think that if it came down to facing the citizenry, whose children go to the public schools, verses the good folks on Riverside Road, I think the school district would much rather go with the folks on Riverside Road, because then they wouldn't have to listen to disagreements in regard to their philosophies.

September 3, 2009 at 8:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple,
I will do just that I will ask Heritage.I can only hope you are on the TF so we can expose this group for what they are.A bunch of people like you.
And apple I will not accept your apology this time.
And dillygent1 you are vorrect they would rather listen to the people on Riverside in stead of the general public.

September 3, 2009 at 8:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple, I need to control my emotions, I think if I was you I would take a look at how fast you flew off of the handle.I find some humor in it though.They have anger management classes avalible somewhere.

September 3, 2009 at 9:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Is it possible that the Riverside Road group is interested in building new buildings to make the city have the appearance of being progressive? I have a little problem with that because I don't think the city is progressive and to be frank, it isn't very clean. If the town would spruce itself up, it could actually sell its older buildings as preserving history, intentionally. When you look at some of the older buildings, they actually look pretty good. There are exceptions of course, but the overall appearance is really pretty nice. An argument could be made that this push to get the new buildings is just a continuation of what happened downtown with Urban Renewal. The historic Robidoux Hotel was torn down and became a sterile looking bank. I believe it was the historic Howitt building that became a parking garage. I think the old Municipal Auditorium met a similar fate, even though it was due to poor maintenance. Neely and Webster Schools probably look about as good as they did when they were new. This is not true of all of the buildings in the school district, but it is true of some. All 3 buildings [The Robidoux Hotel, the city auditorium, and the Howitt building] were considered past their prime. In all 3 cases, contractors talked about how difficult it was to take them down.Sometimes, to be progressive you look around and see what you have. You embrace what you have and take it from there. It's something to consider.

September 3, 2009 at 9:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple, The solution to the mold should have been addressed and fixed.It still needs addressed at Hall.I wonder if they are still replacing that one cieling tile every week at Hall as well.

September 3, 2009 at 10:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple, there are companys out there that deal with water issues everyday and that is the main reason for mold to start damp areas, water, leaks ect.Spend some of that money and correct the mold issues.They also clean the mold up which causes the health issues.I wonder if any of it is black mold.And as for the ceiling tile I would not replace it every week I would find the root cause of this and fix the leak.This was on the news last year when they invited us into the schools to look at their condition.

September 3, 2009 at 11:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Oh apple I am sorry I was suppose to shut my mouth.

September 3, 2009 at 11:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple,
I believe you are wrong but where is your scientific
support for this conclusion of yours were you cannot solve a mold issue.
It would be nice as well if you would to.

September 3, 2009 at 11:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple,
I work in commercial Maintenance and I am telling you today things can be done to get ride of the mold. Be it remove the damaged area or clean and seal the area depending on the material,and the water problem can be taken care of with today technoligy.Is there a cost associated with this sure there is but the cost of this vers the cost of building a new build does not even compair.
On another note think about the school that was to be biult on devils backbone. This would combine 2 schools and I personally do not think that is a good idea after giving it some thought.In some communitys this may work but the way our community is set up we need to stick to the neighborhood schools.If we need to replace the older school why do we not perserve our history in these school and bring them up to date and compliant and use them. The cost of this is a lot less then biulding new schools and combining schools and creating a whole different set of issues.Theres a plan is it not.One I also believe the community would support as well.This would solve several issues we would have new refurbished schools modern and up to date and compliant as well as we would still have our neighborhood schools and save a lot of money by doing this vers biulding new.Plus perserve our history.Plus look at the jobs this would create in the trades.I think I remmeber something along the lines of 4 million a piece to do Neely and Hall and surely the other old schools would not exceed this price.Brand new is not always the way to go.

September 4, 2009 at 6:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Building new I do not see doing more and it would not have the support as refurbishing and keeping our schools history would and keeping the neighborhood school concept.Look apple children do not learn any better in new school vers old schools.And before you hit the AC thing and smelly children this could be addressed in our schools as well.The 3 high schools in town lest use them as a example. You would say biuld new to replace them I would say refurbish them there is a lot of history behind them and to tear them down or let them sit and rot would just not be right. Look at the condition of Washington elementary school. It looks like Crap sitting there.It is people in it but still look like crap after the school district left it.Is this what we want biulding sitting empty and getting runned down or refurbishing them at a cost savings and using them?N othere might not be a plan yet for biulding school but it will return and I will vote no just because I think they need to use what we have and do the above.You all may need to have a school biult but do the above to the rest and save them.But none of this matters because the current people in charge will given nothing from the public to move forward on anything it doesnt look like it anyway.

September 4, 2009 at 7:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

238er says...

mm, the 4 million number is not a number from the district. I think it came from someone on this lists quoting Steve Foutch. I have repeatedly asked them to verify this (they said they had a tape) by posting it on youtube but nothing. I seriously doubt it would have taken care of all the problems both structural and functional at either of those buildings. Neely needed a new gym with a decent floor and a ceiling high enough to play basketball.

These buildings are just old. Not historic, just old. Old does not equal historic. H's house is old, it is not historic. The Jesse James house is historic. Big difference.

I agree, the Washington School needed and needs to be demo'd.

September 4, 2009 at 9 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hcat says...

I'm sure the School District would welcome some volunteer mold remediation. Reiterating the fact that the mold exists at Hall does nothing to repair it. If someone who knows about mold would volunteer to track down the source, help repair it, and then volunteer to assist in remediating the mold problem, the School District would probably appreciate the assistance. In lean times, we all have to contribute our talents to keeping things going. If you have the knowledge--even basic knowledge--to help with this problem, you could do your community a great service by volunteering to help fix it. Who knows--maybe then the District would return your calls and listen to your ideas!

September 4, 2009 at 9:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

i keep inviting you to come see my old non-historic home, 238er...... you know where it is! as for the tape, if i didn't have a MAC and could open the darn thing and if i had even the slightest notion as to how to put anything on utube, i would be happy to post it there.

funny, the landmark commission calls my house historic. the tax people give me a break for it being historic. the people who want it on their historic homes tour call it..... historic. but you can call it old........ i never saw a NEW historic home lm__o.

mm, Dr. smith has verified the amount which foutch gave her for a complete retrofit on both the schools. she never told anyone until we handed her the tape.

September 4, 2009 at 9:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

238er says...

Just drove by about an hour ago on my way to downtown. I make a distinction between old buildings and historic buildings (Geo. Washington slept here type). The tax credit laws don't seem to make that distinction.

Something can be new and historic. For example, the current version of Ford's Theater was opened in August 1863 and Lincoln was assassinated there in April 1865. The building was new, less than two years old. At that point I would consider it historic but not old.

September 4, 2009 at 10:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

well of course, you must be right........

September 4, 2009 at 10:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Sometimes I think we expect the school district to do something that we, as as town, do not do...keep everything up. Maybe the school district should focus on increments in improvement, such as making clean air in every classroom the big focus of the year. I have known people who painted their house, who could not really afford to do it. They did it by painting one side a year. By concentrating on small increments, when the district asks for new buildings, they would have some credibility. If a building had mold, which I am aware that at least 3 schools do, that would either justify a large expense to fix, or to replace. The comment about historic buildings fascinates me. Whatever is historic can be related to the importance of that building, to the individual. What I mean by this is that Neely and Webster have historical significance to their respective neighborhoods. For many years I used to hear from my Catholic friends, who had graduated from Christian Brothers High School, lamenting how the school district had gotten a "steal", in getting the C.B. building and making Bode Middle School out of it. I do look at losing a school building as being a detriment to a neighborhood. I feel sorry for the Neely neighborhood. I honestly believe Neely had served its use as a school. However, the neighborhood was issued a challenge. It answered the call to clean itself up. It did, but lost the school anyway. Do I think the Neely area deserves a school? Yes, I do...just not a supersized building on Carden Park.

September 4, 2009 at 10:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

238er says...

dilly, the Neely neighborhood has repeatedly demonstrated they are against the district by their votes at the ballot box. That area has consistently znd repeatedly voted the highest against anything the district has sought.

September 4, 2009 at 10:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

238'er, it just doesn't seem to me that the south side, northside, or Neely areas have supported tax issues in the past. But yet Hyde was identified as a school that needed to be torn down and plans were in the works for a new middle school with the old Spring Garden becoming the new Hyde. I would wonder just how much of an effort has been made by the school board and administration to talk in those three areas (south side,north side and Neely areas) about schools. Yes, they do, AT ELECTION TIME! Politics is indeed rewarding those who support you. But, this is EDUCATION, which is supposed to be above that sort of thing. Apple, I see your point about the sports facilities. I think visitors from other towns base their image of St. Joseph on what they see. However, due to whatever reasons, St. Joseph salary structure is below what I am sure the salary structure is in Blue Springs,and that will continue to be a factor in what is voted in. Relating to your history comment, you go with whatever asset you have. By the way, are renovations at Notre Dame underway at their football stadium? I believe it goes back quite a ways. Are they removing "Touchdown Jesus" to make way for air conditioned executive suites? Somehow, I doubt that. "Touchdown Jesus" and the "Hail Mary Pass" will be a part of Notre Dame lore for as long as the school survives, and longer.

September 4, 2009 at 12:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

"Historic ways of thinking" guess that is why instead of people finding a new argument to gain majority public buy-in for a permenant levy cause now resorted back to a sunset clause, even though that particular majority base including several posters on here literally trashed the sunset clause and Reeder's group who supported it. Goes right to the very core of a major problem why we are where we are at and continue to not progress, we do not take a strong stand for what we believe in, do not fight for it, and use plasusible denialibility philsophy.

September 4, 2009 at 1:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

238er,
Do you ever wonder why people in the Neely area always vote against the district as well as other areas of town do to. Its called they are sick and tired of being crapped on. So this is there way to communicate to the district since they are unwilling to listen to them and work with them.And now they want their support? I would tell them where to go.How much crap can they continue to give these people and how much more can they take away from them as well as other areas of town? Our School are Historic and this is to the people who went there and they are neighborhood schools which our community needs.Also it is cheaper to refurbish these biuldings instead of biulding new. If I were a betting man I bet that if it was put on the bond to refurbish these old schools vers biulding new it would pass.Why does everybody think new school children will learn more.Hey why doesnt the school district ask Heartland(Heartless Hospital)to biuld the northeast a school and let the rest of the community restore their schools.

September 4, 2009 at 1:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

238er says...

Before the levy was enacted, Neely was going to be shut down and the neighborhood screamed and cried to save their school. We support our school please save it was the mantra. Then the election came. More than 70% (my memory is 90%) voted against the levy.

It is not Heartland's place, nor would I imagine, legal within the laws that establish it to build a school anyware (perhaps unless it were medical related like a nursing school).

So, if the NE side of town figured a way to establish a way to tax themselves and build a taj mahal of a grade school, you would personally get out there and support it? (Oh, and as a side to this, not pay for any renovation to the other grade schools)

September 4, 2009 at 1:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

yougottabekiddingme says...

Don't people/organizations make donations all the time to build schools? Isn't that one of the reasons why there are buildings named after people on college campuses?

September 4, 2009 at 2:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

The Yankees are owned by George Steinebrenner, whom I will now refer to as "S". A lot of times in the pro game, different factors decide whether a stadium is replaced or not, but I imagine most of the time it is due to either ego or the profit motive (i.e. selling suites). It is largely a way to make money. Notre Dame is selling tradition, which, in turn, brings them more money. Both groups, Yankees and Notre Dame, covet their television revenue. In Mr. S's case, his could just be the ego of, "I want one." It's kind of a way to get to be king of the largest city in the United States. To John C.--Analysis of a problem is the easy part. Working around the problem is the hard part. This town tends to be frugal with money. I think you can also say there are financial haves and have-nots. Whoever is selling the levy has to find a way to get around the problem, not just state it. Personally, I originally thought the school district should go for the sunset because it was money in hand, albeit for only 5 years. Now, after my reading of these many comments, I must admit I am questioning the legitimacy of floating the issue with the sunset, at this time. Now all I have to figure out is why Shields and Reeder are for it.

September 4, 2009 at 3:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Apple, I will ask you...Why do you think Shields sat on his hands in April, when buildings could have been built and a tax levy without sunset could have passed? As far as your comment about the Chiefs, I will agree with it, as long as it helps MWSU.

September 4, 2009 at 4:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Apple, your ideas are possible. It's just that if this thing passes, leadership is not going to come across as dynamic, from a victory standpoint. It would have all the appeal of a man kissing his sister. If anybody else has an idea of why Shields sat on his hands in April, but took a leadership role now, I would be interested. I understand the city not getting involved, because they have their own agendas they want to pass. I am not surprised at the city not doing much. I am interested in Shields and Heartland. Actually, I don't think you want to hear this, but Colgan, who has, in the past, been on the Board at Heartland, would have had them on board, in April.

September 4, 2009 at 5:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

The political support was not there in April and it should of been. I disagree with the risk factor, this is about the future of educational processes, and back in April the political infrastructure should of supported that. They did not. They have no problem with other communities, hence, a core reason why those communities are the way they are today. There is something more to this that is political, but again I will not speculate, because I do not have all the validations to support it. As always Dillygent1, you bring up good elements for debate, even if I do not agree always, I respect your insight into the issue.
I believe we should be fighting for the long term approach, not five years from now. I am disappointed that some people who were adiminately for the last initiative and were severely and highly critical of the sunset clause and the people who supported that avenue are now in support of it. I can go back on some posters here who in view actually crossed the line in their comments as it relates to the NP policy in critizing the sunset clause people, most notably Reeder's group, who now seem to in favor of the status quo solution. I do not need to flag those posters, they know who they are and use plausible denialability theory. It is one core reason we have not progressed where we should be.
Those who wanted the sunset clause or no levy at least have held their position from the very beginning of this and while I adminantly am not in agreement with that approach I do respect the fact you held your ground with that position from day one.
Dillygent1 I answered how I would handle this if I was on the BOE. Not everyone agrees with that approach, I do not expect them to. In reality, I will probably never get a chance to apply that approach, I am too committed on other endeavors and even if I give any of them up to shoot for a BOE seat, it would probably be a tough campaign for me. But will say this, if I was there, I would stand by what I believe are the best approaches, validate them and figure out good solutions to get the buy in needed from the community. I would compromise only when variations of those ideas would still progress to achieve desired goals on a specific timeline, and I would not accept status quo solutions that have been proven not to work. I was on the BOE or on any political seat, I would still be on here as well as other forums, stating my viewpoints, putting my name to them and defending them. These are matters of public policy as I have stated before, and people need to have the confidence when they address public policy and are asking for tax money from tax payers for a specific cause to stand behind what they beleive in. It is another core reason I beleive we are where we are in St. Jo. The confidence is not there with many and it shows on this forum. Highly educated and skilled people come on here to trash and say things they would not do in the public eye with their name to it.

September 4, 2009 at 5:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

insideout says...

Since the "mature" audience apparently got blogging shutdown on the School group names manager article I will bring it up here.

I hear trust mentioned all the time on these blogs. So, who really trust that the Task Force will be around after the November ballot regardless of its passage or failure?

Everyone talks about the plan (or lack thereof) that the SJSD had in April but the SJSD started publishing that plan (although poorly) three, four, or five months prior to the ballot. Here we are two months from November and I am yet to see or hear the grand long term plan of the Task Force. Is the Task Force really going to create a better plan in 2 months than the SJSD created over a much longer period?

The Task Force seems to be operating under the normal political games...throw a plan out at the last minute so no one know has time to understand the full effect, generate momentum without complete knowledge, get the issue passed and then let the voters know exactly what they voted for as the Task Force rides off into the sunset to never be heard from again.

You don't have to look any further than the folks involved to realize that it's nothing more than another notch on their belt in attempt to further a political resume. If the true interest was the children, then the group would be fighting for a higher levy (they've already stated 63 cents wasn't enough) and without a sunset clause (which they're on record as saying was not good). Is our town, our community really naive enough to fall victim to this approach?

September 5, 2009 at 5:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

I was glad to see the other blog shut down because people were getting carried away and letting people know where people lived.So it needed to be taken off.This could be a scary situation for some.Our post we can disagree with each other and we all havew the right to voice our opinions but some people were taking it a little to far with the driving by your home issue.This is not the first time this indivdual has done this and they know who they are.Stop it and grow up.
Now as far as the TF I do not see them full filling anything they said they were going to do. I have seen nobody out in the community talking to people to gather information or anything for that matter.These people have two agendas. 1 .the northesast side of town.2.And something to put on their resumes such as we did this and this to help our schools. First the problem is they are not listening and Communication with the public.This group and the board and admin belong together. Niether one know what the real maning of the word COMMUNICATE means or unwillingto listen. They know they have sever issues in the schools and Mr Myers said we need this levy to help solve the issues we have in the school. Well as I said before how is this levy going to open the schools back up and solve the overcrowding at the rest of the schools in town?Let me answer that for you Mr Myers it is not going to solve any of the issues we face after the admin and board made these bad decisions to close these 2 school this early. They should have left these school open this year while they worked to put a long term plan together with the public support.If your group was sincer in wanting what was best you all would have told the district that this is what they should have done. The levy is just set up for failure in November and there will be more hard feeling after the election and this is going to go on and on for some time to come. Unless we get new board members and after reading some of other people post it makes sence that 2 new mwmber and Mr Snthen and Mrs Siemens working for the public they would have the majority and then 2 upper admin jobs could be replaced and we could move forward with doing whats right for our schools.Wake up the majority this time is going to be the little guy not the high and mighty.Staus quo is over and the public will speak very loudly on Nov 3rd.

September 5, 2009 at 8:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

i must say, john, that i am having real considerations about having identified myself here. :0(

inside out. i believe the game plan is to simply ask the voters to vote for the stopgap measure of the sunset levy and to worry about the "long range plan" later. this is a questionable move for many reasons, the principal being an elective one. a long range plan which is in place and which has been fully outlined to the public is vital to the support of the voters. the district has the cart before the horse.

September 5, 2009 at 8:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

One question for some to think about. Has this TF or the board or administration from downtown been out in the schools and I mean all of them to see the issues their decisions have caused?I would venture to say that they have not. But prove me wrong and tell me what is going on. Do they see the overcrowding going on and this is in all of the school.As I have said before I hope our children population does not grow and if it does our children will be sitting in the schools front yards having class.And has anybody sit back down since they have the student count back in from the schools and looked at the boundry lines they drew? I think they need to revisit it for the next up coming school year because it is a mess as well.

September 5, 2009 at 8:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

i did not even see that comment and did not make the request.

September 5, 2009 at 9:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple
Would it make you feel better if I made the request since it was out of line but I know you think the same way.Dont think Heriatage made the request.I think you have had your fair share removed as well.
Apple open your eyes I think you better watch the other group they are the ones up to no good.

September 5, 2009 at 9:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

I know I look at everything politically, but this is a classic example of it. I feel the school district would much rather listen to those perceived to have the power/money, than listen to us, the mere taxpayers. It's kind of a case of the "big girls"[SJSD administrators] wanting to run with the "big boys" [the good folks on Riverside Road]. Whoever helps the school district, has the district's ear, and I don't think the school district wants to feel beholding to the parent/taxpayers. They SHOULD, but that's not politics in 2009. The name of the game is...how large a block of votes can you deliver? Heartland plus the St. Joseph School District [IF it can get its people behind it] plus large donor money SHOULD EQUAL SUCCESS, which is why I still ask this question: Where was that arithmetic in April? School district, how are you going to motivate your people?

September 5, 2009 at 12:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Apple, relating to MM's problem with the school district...ANYONE's image of anything is dependent upon his or her invovement in it. If you, yourself, have a negative experience, your attitude toward that entity is negative. Put enough negative opinions together, you potentially have a MOVEMENT. My chief concern with the school district is how they treat their employees, whom I talk to, and how they treat their parents, whom I also talk to. My other concern is that every classroom for every child has a safe and healthy environment. If the people involved have no desire to deliver on that, I say you find somebody who WILL try to DO SOMETHING. I give the school district credit that they have been able to be fiscally conservative in a town that is definately of that bent. I also understand the philosophy behind the big school. I just don't necessarily agree with it. I assume that the oversized school largely goes with the fiscal conservatism of the school district: Above ALL else, save money.

September 5, 2009 at 12:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

apple, i am going to object strenuously to your questioning my integrity..........

September 5, 2009 at 12:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

furthermore, the behavior which caused the other comments to be closed does and has frightened me. the person who does this knows it and persists in doing so.

September 5, 2009 at 12:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple, you are strill clueless.For one yes I had aissue with the district and it is resolved.Now comes the fact they have created other issues of their own making and I will not let it go for it falls off of the public radiar.I want these folks to be held accountable to the people they answer to and that is the St Joseph Mo (buchanan county tax payer).This is who gives them thier paycheck is it not?Have they not created one heck of a mess?Is there not overcrowding in all of the schools? Is there children that still do not have books?Is there also not a need caused by all of this where the district is going to have to buy 5 school busses they would have not had to have?Is there any communication with the public from the board and the admin?
Also APPLE further more I think if you read the post below I beleive you will see Heritage said it does frighten her and the person doing so persist in doing it unless you are calling a liar as well.
Also apple all of the above questions I have asked you for one I would like to hear your answers and also like to let you know my problem has not created this mess.AlsoI have told you several times my issue is resolved.But the fact remain for all of the above issues and I am sure I left some out.I am waiting for your answers. I am sure they will be behind the people that have made this mess.

September 5, 2009 at 3:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple,
The vote is not over yet is it.

September 5, 2009 at 3:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple, Really I am glad if nothing else I made you see this in yourself.I will now still post my opinions and you may not like them but that is ok.This what makes the world go around.

September 5, 2009 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple,
This is exactly why I address you because of the fact you are calling names again I guess you did not see anything in your self after all. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt but Now instead of calling me stupid,children stupid,idiots,Haters,now is it loser.I am glad you know me and have attacked my character again.Your true colors are showing.

September 5, 2009 at 6:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

It is very unfortunate one blog was shut down because some decided to go across the line. In my view, if we all were required to put our real names to the comments, I believe that path would not have been taken. I have a different view of this. Using anonomity allowed some to resort to intimadation style tactics and they believe they had the freedom to take those paths. We all should be comfortable saying what we have to say without anonomity. In saying that, just because I have that view point does not mean I don't understand why people use anomonity to comment.

These intimadation tactics are another core reason this city is where it is, those tactics have been used by several against others over the years. That is crap.

The blog came down because it got out of control and if everyone had the confidence of putting their own name to what they have to say, I believe it would not have gone down that path, I believe the debate would have been more respectful. I find it astonishing how far this issue has gone in terms of throwing people under the bus, it has surpassed even the last initiative. And it appears those tactics are coming from supporters of this Task Force. My suggestion to those close to the Force, who are on it, or who support it, get your constituency base under control. There is a strong opposing viewpoint out there in regards to your directionand we have every right to speak out about it without fear of intimidation tactics.
Apple I do not care what you think about what I have to say on the anonomity issue, if you had the confidence to use your name I am betting the debate would have been more respectful. This is a matter of public policy and the end results will cost tax payers money. Anyone who influences that element or attempts to, should have the confidence to stand by it and justify their argument. The sunset clause issue I have not heard a strong case for it, only desparation reasons, and I have already addressed that if that is the case, then argue for a re-evaluation of property tax distributions to accomodate those "necessary cost needs" .

September 6, 2009 at 1:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

For the record Apple I do get out alot, and do meet alot of people and do get their views. You know very little about me. And your own intimidation tactics against me about "being watched" have not worked. I have had missiles, bombs and bullets thrown at me throuhgout my past career so I have no fear from those types of tactics that some seem to love to use. I am more adimant now then ever that this levy in November is the wrong approach and will hurt more then improve. It will lock status quo in for 5 more years with no changes and only miniminally maitaining things to get buy. I hope it fails, and leaves the door open for the proper argument to come back to the table.

The one blog was shut down and there was good reason for it. Individuals who take the anonimity approach to the extreme to hide behind for the sole purpose of utilizing initimidation tactics, that is my view is going too far.

I have strong viewpoints about anonomity, but trust me, MM1967, Dillygent1, Heritage, and others, including those who have personnally emailed me on the issue who defend the use of it because as of a direct result of what has occured, believe me I understand why.

September 6, 2009 at 1:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Well lets see Apple has gotten one blog removed and 238er has got the other blog removed.And these 2 can only see their side of this and not understand where us parents are coming from and some of us want change before we will vote yes for anything.I have not called people names and have been mad enough to but refrained from it. I wish the rest would as well. This gets nobody anywhere.

September 6, 2009 at 3:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

Apple you make some good points on your last post, for the record, I do not feel I am one sided on the issue. I voiced a very strong opinion I have about the anonomity issue, especially when it relates to public policy issues that its elements will have major impact on all, and that is what it is, nothing more. My opinion on the matter apparently has generated alot of discussion, shots have been taken at me over it as well (no big deal there, it was just words and respectful sarcasm, some even funny, no insults or name calling), and I have even recommended to the NP a separate article should be done on it, it would make for interesting debate. I never once suggested the NP make a policy change, I made a suggestion its existing guidelines and reccommendations come down as they are for the most part ignored. In saying that, there are several networking and forum sites who do have that type of policy in place, so it is out there, for good or for worse. I gave service and fought for this country for over 20 years so believe me Apple, I am a strong advocate of freedom of speech, regardless of my opinions on the anonmity issue. My whole point on the issue was to encourage those who do have influence on public matters stand up for what they say and have the confidence to own their argument and viewpoint, nothing more, I never stated it should be a legislative law.
Your last paragraph is interesting, I agree it would stop from things getting out of hand, but I disagree about the debate. I think the debating aspect would become more involved with the issue at hand and most would stay to the point of the issue, no different then having a good conversation with others at a bar, club, party, bbq, etc. Again there are times the above gets out of control as well, but in those cases there are other means available to get it quickly under control.
Intimidation, name calling, insults, are all different things. The name calling and insults were escalated by many from all sides and I personally believe the moderators let that go too far. The intimidation was brought on by a few. They are separate issues.

September 6, 2009 at 4:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

Unfortunately I observed that element coming from one side of this issue. I never asked you to stay away from here. Other then the one element I addressed, our debate on this issue has been intense but respectful. You stand your ground and have been consistent with it from day one, that I can respect. You have been respectful of mine as well with exception that you believe I am on another agenda which is not true. I want to see progression for the entire educational process that includes all areas of the city equally and wait another 5 years for that case to be argued. The NE needs schools, we need to move on it now, and cannot with a sunset levy argue for bonds.
The existing infrastructure needs to be improved on all those buildings that will continue to be used. I believe the administration and BOE should own their arguments, make their business case, find solutions to gain the public majority buy in and not allow other groups to control the direction, only solicit groups to help support what they need which actually did occur to some extent last time. The problem was with how the public was engaged. Reeder's group also was not challenged enough, more effort should of went into making the argument stronger then his to resonate. I believe the AYP issue, NCLB problems, and many other issues facing the district are a direct result from a sunset clause being in place and restricting the ability and opportunities for improvement. These are very core reasons I think it should go away and never be an option to put back on the table. If that were the case,then we would in my view make more of an effort to find the long term solutions to solve the present problems and do the work to make the arguments strong enough the public will support them. I enjoy the debating with you on the issues Apple when the the focus is the issue and nothing else. If I did run into you out in town if I knew who you were, I would say hello and invite you to a cup of coffee for chat and discussion about the issues. I do it all the time Apple when I am out and about, not just here but when I out of town for the week also, and when asked about St Jo, I tell people it is like any community, it has its issues, but it also has alot of opportunity and potential and it is not a bad place to live. That opportunity and potential depends on long term committments and how well we invest towards St Jo to achieve that "future state" as well as encouraging others to do so.
The belief that we are the only community with issues is overblown. CA is in trouble with its own educational processes, schools all over the country are closing due to financial upheaval, Jersey charges fees for anything extra in schools such as team sports, etc, with a tax base that is higher than any state, the list goes on. We should argue for what we need and not allow outsiders to trash this community, we need to defend it and get our house in order for the long term future state.

September 6, 2009 at 4:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

wow, i cannot believe that another article has been closed, but i completely understand the reason behind it.

seriously, the thing which keeps me fairly civil IS the fact that i have given my name here. there are only a handful of hochschwenders in the country, and my daddy always asked us never to shame the family name.

i know that i have stepped right up to the line often...... and i admit that it has almost gotten to be a game of cat and mouse with apple. for the record, i do not know who you are and was messing with your head apple.

i started a face book page ( swore i would never do that) and am going to make an effort to make my comments there. can't say i will be able to keep to that promise, but reading back, it is pretty evident that a single comment on an article should suffice. the rest is just so much window dressing...... and i need to close my curtains.

bon chance to everyone, and god bless.....

September 6, 2009 at 4:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

Correction on "I want to see progression for the entire educational process that includes all areas of the city equally and wait another 5 years for that case to be argued." Meant to say:
"I want to see progression for the entire educational process that includes all areas of the city equally and not wait another 5 years for that case to be argued. It needs to be argued now, today, not down the road years from now."

September 6, 2009 at 4:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple, you can read this or not I think that I am so against the board and the admin something must have happened to my falily and my cxhildren that was not right. When I told you they had lied to us on several occasions you did not believe me.I do not have to tell you what had happened or when it happened. I just donot like the way they do business and our problem came from you and only you more a less calling me a liar.Now like I have said to you on several occasions you have your opinions and I have mine.If you would have never made it out that I was a Hater, Stupid, and a drug user, and a high school drop out I would have not went at you the way I did.But my god read some of the post you have posted insulting people calling people as well as children names. I really and glad you are still here exercising your right of freedom of speech just do not act like things people post are all lies and that people hate and are stupid. Apple this has affected alot of children and we as parents see it everyday at their schools.So you have to understand we are mad and want some answers from the proper people and we are not getting the answers. Even if it was a answer we did not want at least we got a response but we do not even get that.Glad you stayed and have a good evening.Heritage sorry to see you go as well.

September 6, 2009 at 6:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Now that all the apologies are over, let's start going with some good discussion. NWMOboy, I heard you had a darned good post, I'd like to read it. How about posting it again, here. Rivergirl, same. The only thing that bothers me about the crude remarks is that it gets to be very easy for good dialogue to get shut down, all in the name of "good taste." The sad thing is that there have been some very interesting things said here, that could have been very helpful down the road. If it is censorship due to poor taste, that is fine. But, I think people from all areas of town, who feel divided, may see, in expressing their opinions, that people, whom they do not know, in other areas of town, may have more in common with them than they thought. Right now I think a rift has developed so wide, that the issue in November has no chance of success. However, by allowing a free flow of ideas, and allowing people to "blow off steam," a sense of unity and purpose may come out of it.Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, but it needs to be done responsibly.I would like to hear from school district employees about the issue--good and bad. I would like to hear from parents/taxpayers.

September 6, 2009 at 9:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Apple, you are correct there should have been some kind of toen hall meeting to let the public know about the 2 issues you adressed above.Also I do believe the district needs to address the public even if they are mad somehow these issues have to get addressed and people calmed down.And you are right there has been for years a trust issue with the board and people from the northeast. But listen I am willing to work with all people even from the northeast, but you have to understand the guard is up because for years there reason for this trust issue from other areas of town.I am not saying any of this to make you mad I am just asking you to look at the issue with trust from the other persons stand point.The people from the northeast are really probably not at fault but our city goverment and our school district has made this anotmosity between the areas of town.Really apple I understand the northeast needs a school for the children. I would ask you though to look at the other areas of town please and look hard at them and you will see that our city has done what they had to in these parts of town and no more.Really apple the people from the southend are the type of people they would give you the shirt off of their backs if you needed it.They are very neighborly people that are just down to earth.They do take care of their own but have let people in from the outside they are not closed off from the rest of the community.I have lived in almost all areas of this town and I think we have a great community to raise a family in.Now back to the schools we need to have some sort of communication from the board and the admin to solve the issues that have the commnity stirred up.How do we do that I really do not know at this point but people are willing to listen and I think they just want a little respect given thier way.Apple I did have issues with the SJSD as I have said and I have them resolved finally.My children are honor roll students and they mean the world to me and their education does as well. I am raising my children to get along with everybody and to respect everybody and to be good up standing citizens because when me and my wife are gone I want to know they will be able to take care of themselves and raise their familys.Apple I hope none of this offended you and how would you think the district should address this issue?

September 6, 2009 at 9:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

I sometimes wonder if when people begin to think about serving on the school board, that they start out with the best of motives, but get caught up with the trappings of the job. They get nice soft chairs. They get treated well by the powers that be. They may enjoy getting looked up to, but somewhere along the way they forget why they were voted in. I believe it is you, Apple, who said that there was such a poor turnout for the last school board election. It was not large at all. To that end, we deserve what we get. The bad thing about so many of these posts disappearing is that we learned that some people disagree with some things we say on one hand, and on another issue, they may be in total agreement. By ending the ability to post and read posts, there is no chance to find a common ground. When I started posting, I really thought the 63 cent sunset was better than nothing. After listening to the discussions, and being made aware of just who the Task Force is [and I still wonder why they did not help in April], I see far more gains in the defeat of this election than in the success of it. I would also look at this as a very loud call for people to know just who their school board candidate is. And a person running for the Board really should look at his or her membership as more than a Monday night, hour and a half visit, once a month. Apple, just curious--and I really don't know the answer to this--how many board members live in the northeast section of town? I am calling the NE section of town as east of Ashland?

September 6, 2009 at 10:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

MM, have you thought about running or being in a group to try to endorse a candidate to run for the school board? I wonder how many of the current school board members actually have school aged children in the St. Joseph public schools. These children are the very people who are effected by what is going on now. I have often heard that in the past, school district administrators didn't mind letting people know, just who were "good" people to run the school district.It might be nice to see parents of children involved.

September 6, 2009 at 10:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Dillygent1,
I really do not think at this point my education back ground qualifys me to be on the school board.My schooling is for a whole different field.I also agree that maybe we need someone with school age children.I have given it some consideration as to helping a group endorse a canidate for the school board.My political skills are pretty rough(Laughing).You know it is kinda funny when you are in your 20,s and 30,s the political arena and candidates your really do not pay to much attention to but as we get older we follow candidates more closely and listen to their platforms and agendas more closely then we did when we were young.I guess as we get older the things the politicians do will affect us at some point in our lifes.I would think people interested in running for the school board would be throwing their names in the hat before long really April is not that far off.Someone had asked why people with skills in biulding and or maintenace areas did not volunteer to help the district with the issue that the schools have. Where do you go to do this I wonder and does the district allow this.I know we volunteer as our school to help out for different things but the other is something I would be interested in and believe I could be of some help and probably could save them some money at the same time.

September 6, 2009 at 10:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

MM, I can't answer where you'd go to check about volunteering with your skills, but I would start either with the principal at my child's school or even contact the school district maintenance department. Maybe some of the district people who read these comments could answer you. As far as your comment about the education of a Board member... there are some teachers on there. I think that the Seimens woman is a business person. Snethen is out of interserv, I believe. and Rucker is from business and is a state representative. Personally,I think common sense and a desire to help your children and community is a very good qualification.Personally, I would still like to see different areaas of town be represented on the Board. Some areas would have more people wanting the position than others, but that would allow for all areas to be served. Appreciated your post.

September 6, 2009 at 11:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

insideout says...

mm1967 - I partially agree with your rationale behind 20 and 30 year olds not being involved in the political scene. However, I would like to purpose a few other reasons to chew on...

The mentality of several folks is that this age group does not contain the life experience needed to make or assist in community policy. In some cases, I completely agree but I would argue that this age group is much more open-minded to a variety of ideas and opinions of others regardless of economic status or ethnic background. I'm not suggesting that the older population cannot contain these traits but often times as we age, our opinions and ideas become more solid.

Another reason we (St. Joe) lacks political involvement from this age group is because we continually lose the folks from this group to other communities. I'm not sure how to put this in a politically correct fashion but generally speaking the individuals running for community offices are college educated...unfortunately for many college educated folks the job market is brighter and more prosperous outside of St. Joe.

Third, this group is often in midst of building their careers, this occupies a vast majority of their time. Add that to the challenges that come with starting and maintaining a family and they have a "full plate". Whereas the older population has already established a career, mostly like conquered raising children, and has more time to focus on community issues.

September 7, 2009 at 3:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

First off, I think dividing the town, much as the city council does, would be a good start for the school board. You could also have some "at large" members, as the council does. I am not suggesting that each school be represented. I am suggesting that each area of town be represented. The school district's product is people. I think part of the reason that we are where we are is because the school board felt that the only business they had to do was to pass anything that came up on the regular board meeting nights. Given the state of the economy in April, when the bond issue and levy were both on the ballot, I think the least you could say was that the school board was misinformed. Somehow I think that if the school board had a better idea of what was going on in the community, they would have heeded the superintendent. Actually, the administration works for the school board, who is hired by us. Why shouldn't they know something about what is going on in their schools. I would bet every school volunteer could tell you what the attitude of that school building is, toward what is going on. If they can, why shouldn't the school board get out and find out what is going on in the buildings.

September 7, 2009 at 4:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

For the school board...I would put in "divergent thinkers." Business people do bring expertise in business to their meetings. But, is the financial bottom line the ONLY good thing for our young people? MM, in one post, brought up volunteering with the maintenance department in schools. I would think his expertise in that field could be an advantage as a school board member. An ex-teacher brings knowledge about the classroom, but I don't think you want a school board comprised of nothing but ex-school teachers. I think you are better off with the more varied backgrounds on the board. A psychologist would have information and insights that could be helpful in making decisions and how those decisions would effect the students. A parent with school aged children should be the most interested of all, for looking out for childrens' best interests. My point is to get away from homogeneous groupings and thought. Everybody has valuable information and insights to bring to the table, but they aren't helped to realize that what they have to offer is as important as another person's gifts. The schools should be everybody's business.

September 7, 2009 at 4:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Dillygen1,
You touch on the fact that the board should get out and see and communicate with the local schools admin and see what is going on. I can tell you I see it everyday at our school it is a mess.And the principle and teachers are doing a good job,but you can see their fustration and also some of them are vocal about it. I have heard some say that they did not agree with the redistricting and the closings and some are just worried about having a job if the levy fails. So I would say on that front at least at our school there is not alot of support for what their bosses which is the admin and board downtown did.I just want this mess to get cleaned up and for our schools to move forward.I really do not think that the children are getting a good of a education as they did last year because of the number of children in each class as well teachers are fustrated with the current situation and are not focusing on their job like they did last year this has been a distraction for them as well.I really do not know how this is going to be done there are just to many children in the schools and I know I have said this before but we have closed these 2 schools to quickly and I think the majority agrees but now what do we do with all of this over crowding going on our school has gained 100 plus children this year that was not there last year.That is pushing 440 plus children.Do we need to bring trailers into the schools that will hold some classrooms?Cause without 2 new schools to replace the 2 that closed or trailers brought in the overcrowding in not going to go away.Maybe you are right we should have a couple of board members that have school age children on the board that have ideas how to turn the schools around.dillygent maybe you are right board members with diversity,Teachers,business man or woman,a principle,someone from medical field,people from all aspects of the schools daily operation maybe this is the way to go for board members.

September 7, 2009 at 5:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

MM, I'm about to say something that, if anyone is still commenting except for you and me, could get me in a lot of trouble. I think a balanced school district needs both men and women. This district is not balanced. Men and women see things differently. I think you need both views, and serious consideration of those views, when making important decisions. To my knowledge there are 2 men downtown. Flowers is in Human Resources and Shindorf, who serves under Mrs. Patterson, as one half of a team of two people under her. I may be wrong, but there is a male co-principal position in the 3 public high schools, no male positions in the middle schools and I expect very few, if any male principals in elementary. There may be one at Skaith, but I'm not sure. This is not to knock the abilities of the women involved, but a man can sometimes give another slant on things. It would be nice to see positions be half and half between male and female administrators and Board members.

September 7, 2009 at 7:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

MM, another thought I had in our conversation...sometimes I think administrators think that power is owed and guaranteed to them. It is only theirs' as long as they use it wisely--or as long as the people THINK they are using it wisely. Being a bully is a foolhearty decision. If you like to kick people, in the end, you will be kicked back. Administrators need to understand that the power is there ONLY as long as the people give it to them. Somewhere, I think that has been forgotten. It's something that ALL administrators need to think about.

September 7, 2009 at 7:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Dillygent,
I agree with you on the above post.And I wonder if anybody else is posting anymore or if they have been scared off.You know the last 2 post got pretty carried away.And about the kicked and be kicked comment I think the public will be kicking back. I just for the life of me do not understand why they are not trying to calm the publics perception about the job they are performing and the publics distrust in them and the public being mad about the transfers,redistricting, and the school closings.It is almost like they do not care at this point.Also like I have said there is alot of concerns in our school as well as probably the rest of the schools by the staff about the whole situation.We really need to get this mess resolved and solved for the schools can move forward.I just do not see anything getting better in our schools anytime soon. Both sides need to be working together and nothing is moving on either side.And come to think about it since Mrs Smith took over there are no longer any men as principles in the district the last one was at Pickett last year and he retired.When I was in school there was men and women as principles what up with this I wonder.

September 7, 2009 at 8:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

I am also wondering the way the staff is concerned about their future and the districts future and the conversations I have heard or actually have talked to them about if they are really focused on the school year and if the children are recieving a quality education this year? And this is not the teachers and principles fault at all and if I were them I would be concerned as well.This has to be a hugh distraction for them.I also wonder if anybody on the board has thought about this as well or the district administration.I mean the stress you can see and the tension for these people you could cut with a knife.I am not just saying this to be saying it this is what is actually being seen and heard.I would love for this whole situation come to some sort of a conclusion but I do not know how at this point.

September 7, 2009 at 8:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

rivergirl says...

The district offers a very TOP down administration. The staff is rarely consulted. They are intimidated but input is not sought. You won't find many district staff members posting here as the consequences would be great if it were found out. From what I see the staff is doing the best they can while dealing with questionable curriculums and policies, trying to impart necessary skills to their students in spite of them. One poster asked if school board members got out into the buildings and talked to the staff. It would not make much difference as I believe board policy states all cummunication with the board must go through the superintendents office.

September 7, 2009 at 9:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Rivergirl, the way I read your comment is that NOBODY is there for STAFF. The district has to learn, YESTERDAY, that fear is not an appropriate motivation. I think this has been a problem of SJSD for quite some time. My theory goes... If they keep staff under their thumbs, and try to scare them and threaten them,the staff will do anything possible to keep the administrators off their backs. My questions to administrators are...Are you sure you're giving your teachers the best chance for success? Are you sure you have a curriculum that YOU understand well enough to impart to your teachers or are you trying to make them afraid so that they don't ask you questions you can't answer? Do you understand that when children are upset and feel out of their element, that their ability to learn may be hindered? Do you understand that abusive treatment of adult parents,staff, and students can very well backfire at the ballot box? Do you understand that there is more than one way to motivate? Sometimes an encouraging word, recognition for a job well done, humility and appreciation shown --can go a long way.

September 7, 2009 at 10:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

No have not been scared away, just took a break from it for a bit. The last several posts on here, all very good ones, an exchange of ideas and viewpoints that is respectful and thoughout. I believe elements from several of these last posts would help improve things if they were implemented. Apple, loved when you brought up the problem solving elements, I agree, those techniques in my view would have been very valuable in this issue. Time will tell how this thing will play out. I really do not have a whole lot to add to this issue, I have made my points on them previously and continue to stand by them. I will say at one point in time prior to the approval of moving on with the present direction, there was pause, my argument was given some consideration. And many who disagree with me still believe my argument is where we should be heading, however they see an immediate need, not future state. This is one of my issues with the TF, the orginal majority base of this group was severely critical of the sunset clause levy back then as not being effective, the validation of this came very clear when in the very beginning, heated exchanges occured over it with Mr. Reeder. When I even talked to several about this, the response given was more along the lines of desparation and the "keeping the lights on" philsophy then a strong argument to go back to the sunset clause. And in my view, if that is the case and present funding without any additional levies cannot support the basic operationing costs, this should not even be up for vote, it should be argued at the municipal levels for re-distribution of property tax percentages to offset that. Additional levies should be for improvements, not for basic operational needs. Sunsets do not get us there. Those who say that argument cannot be made, I disagree with that. This in my view is what our political leaders should be doing, instead of backing a specific group and running a campaign, they should be arguing this at the municipal and state levels. Insideout, very interesting perspective on the elements of elected offices and the demographics of that. I agree with that perspective.

September 8, 2009 at 1:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

I understand what taking the levy away did closed schools.I have dealt with that but now they want the same levy back and so do the people then they want their schools back. Really I know I going to get the schools are closed and thats that.But one could ask if that is the only reason they closed them for was the levy not passing then if it passes in November then one could expect they could reopen them till ones are biult to take their place and solve these overcrowding issues.Something really need to be done to get these classroom sizes down to where the children will be learning better.This years the numbers are to high per classroom.
My reasoning behind this is that I continue to here they closed them because the levy failed.Ok then when it passes open them till bonds are passed to biuld new schools if this was the only reason they were closed was because the levy failed.It just seems to always come back to this and it will till something is done.

September 8, 2009 at 7:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

mm, the schools were closed for "right-sizing", not because the levy failed.

john, you and i have talked about the alternate idea of funding the schools from the appropriate property tax avenue. i intend to pay a visit to city hall to get more details on this. we don't need a darn operating levy if we have strong and unwavering support at a higher governmental level.

September 8, 2009 at 8:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

the plan was not to close neely. the plan was to "right size" and close webster and noyes. neely was never mentioned until the levy failed and the district had a temper tantrum.

it doesn't matter which two schools were closed, it is obvious that this was wrong sizing....... it was a bad decision and we are now suffering the consequences of the so-called adjustment from "population shift".

September 8, 2009 at 9:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

I will agree if they were closed for right sizing then they missed the mark horribly on this.Because there are a lot of the school now that have more or right at the maxiumum number of allowed students. This is the first issue with our schools we need to address and get worked out. As I have said our school picked uo around 100 additional students and our school is filled to capacity.My opinion is they really need to look at the numbers of student per school and look at the current situation of overcrowding because the right sizing has missed the mark.And if the schools were closed due to the levy as I have said and I will stand firm on my position then if the levy passes the schools need to reopen until new schools are biult for we do not have a overcrowding issue.It all still comes back to these closing no matter how you look at it.So first I would say if we are not going to be able to biuld news schools anytime soon how do we solve the above issue?And if they were goingto close Webster and Noyes they would have created a bigger mess then this area of town is suffering at this point.No matter how you draw the district boundries there will be schools over crowded at this point.I know I am beating a dead horse but something needs to be done on this issue.And passing the levy is not going to help unless they open these schools back up and staff them or bring in trailers to the schools with the large amount of students.If the district would come out and say we are going to reopen these school till new ones can be biult then I believe they would get their levy without a sunset claus and when the economy turns around they would get the new schools.Look this is hard on the students and the teachers and the local principles and the schools support staff,and a large distraction for the teachers.

September 8, 2009 at 10:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

yougottabekiddingme says...

H - finally broke down and signed up for FB, huh?? I just sent you a friend request.

What the heck happened to the other comments sections on the other articles? Jeez, you disappear for a couple of days and all heck breaks loose. I hate that I missed it!

September 8, 2009 at 12:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Apple, First off... the superintendent DID say that Neely would close whether or not the levy passed. I'm just not sure of the timeline. She did say that if the levy passed, that Neely would stay open long enough for the new building to be built. Beyond that, I would have to agree with Heritage about the immediate closing of Neely. Relating to your comment about a formal procedure for grievance....I don't think it exists in SJSD. I think the teachers are just told their administrator is right and if they don't like it, they can move on, which, in some cases, they have. If the downtown administration works for the school board, who, in turn, works for us...that means that the teachers and staff also work for the school board, who, in turn, works for us. I heard just today about a new curriculum coming to St. Joseph, replacing one that is only a couple of years old. How can you properly evaluate the previous program after only a couple years in existance? What criteria made them decide that it was time to have a new curriculum? How many hours, that should be spent with the children, are now going to be spent teaching their teachers how to work with this new curriculum? When will that teaching time take place? Early outs? Normal student learning hours? What is the man-hour time lost? Where you employ people to work with young people, you have to operate on a different kind of word, and that word is,"finesse." They "ain't" got it.

September 8, 2009 at 12:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

yougottabekiddingme says...

Apple, the perception in the community is that the district had a temper tantrum. This is a fact that the TF is going to have to deal with if they hope to be successful. I have many good friends who worked on the first campaign who do not intend to vote for the levy because they feel like the district betrayed them. These are the same "east side soccer moms" that Ms. Wagner didn't think served a purpose on the TF. The overwhelming sentiment in the community is that people do not trust the administration and they do not trust the TF. These are facts that have to be dealt with. You may not have a similar perception, however, if the intent is to pass the levy, that perception has to be addressed.

I believe the TF has no idea what kind of trouble they are in because they didn't talk to the community. They have based the vote in November on the false assumption that the levy failed because of the lack of the sunset clause.

September 8, 2009 at 12:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

yougottabekiddingme says...

ouch - I just fell out of my chair. Apple, is that you agreeing with me???

This has been my argument all along - you argue for proper funding, we all agree that you can not properly fund our schools on a temporary basis. The fact that they agreed to put it on the ballot with the sunset clause makes me question their judgment and motives ESPECIALLY when it solves no immediate problem or prevents future financial crisis. How will they ever CREDIBLY argue for no sunset clause again? They won't be able to.

September 8, 2009 at 12:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Yes they have went down a path to far the wrong way and I would like to know what the district is going to do.I do not see what I have talked about getting solved unless they open a school back up.Somehow we need to get this overcrowding issues resolved.I am not for the sunset at this point either on the levy.And everyone knows where I stand on the board issue in April.But the fact remains for the admin and the board to sit and take the wait and see approach is not working these folks need to admit they were wrong and correct the issues.We all have made some very constructive points but the issues as I have said all comes back to the school closings and the redistricting, this is what needs worked on to get thing set straight and move forward with a long term plan for our schools.I do not know about anybody else but when I see the fustration on our teachers and principles face everyday it is time to get something done to resolve the issue.This is not good for them or our children in the community.What is it going to take to get this whole situation under control because the public is mad and will not pass this levy and some are not going to vote because of the sunset, as some just want no new taxes.It all spells disaster.The children are not getting the onoe on one time they did last year and they are going tot suffer from this.Everybody above makes good points now we just need to act.

September 8, 2009 at 3:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Apple,I made my reference to Heritage after I realized that Neely was, indeed, going to close anyway. The only comment I can remember about it being open, was that it would stay open until the new building was built. I don't remember what Smith said would happen if the levy failed. The reason I place so much importance on an upbeat staff is because they are the ones who come in the closest contact with students and parents/taxpayers.That makes them the real PR of the school system.If they are happy, the district gets good PR. If they are sad or angry or stressed--that also comes out as a negative (but real) sort of PR. I just don't think you want parents/voters to get the idea that their children's teachers are being treated badly. Such parents might worry about the quality of their children's education if their teacher is miserable. They may worry about the relationship between their children and the teacher they face each day. It can work negatively behind the striped curtain.Remember, the schools don't sell goods. If anything, they sell a service...educating young humans.When working with young humans, you are also working with young feelings and attitudes. It's not concrete, like a sidewalk.

September 8, 2009 at 4:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

rivergirl says...

WOW, APPLE UNBELIEVABLE comments...."apple September 7, 2009 at 11:27 p.m. I don't think its fair to portray the district as a buch of bullies and such. and...
People who work for the schools or the district should not be online posting here, it would be wrong. District and school policy should only be communitcated in a very formal way."

Fair has nothing to do with it. The district is reaping the seeds it has sown, it is what it is, and the results are not good for their employees, the community and the kids. It's also a good thing I don't work for the district and, have your okay to post here. It was my understanding that district policy is open to the public. You, yourself, have quoted it before in your posts. School employees don't lose their rights (freedom of speech) just because they work for the schools. Communication is never wrong!

I'm not against the district, I do have issues with the way some administrators treat their employees and the added stress they are putting on them in already stressful jobs. A few school I am aware of mandate that employees can't make appointments (medical, personal or family) on their own time as they are 'required' to attend meetings off contract time. During contract times I totally agree, but not being able to schedule appointments on their personal time, I take issue with. I know, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen or how about turning down the heat a bit and letting things simmer for awhile. This district has a lot of fine employees, as well as, a few good administrators. The key thing that sets them about is they feel they are 'part of a team, working for a common goal - the kids!'

September 8, 2009 at 7:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Well said, rivergirl. Keep posting.

September 8, 2009 at 7:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

rivergirl says...

Apple, Apple.... Your comments are based on YOUR reality. Not the reality the majority of the posters seem to see. You are constantly voicing your opnions, stating you have no contact with the schools and that you just like to debate, yet when someone states their concerns you want to limit those that can post.

"If indeed any of it is true..." Won't even justify this with a response. You'd just say it wasn't true.

"Side issues..." it's not a side issue just because you disagree with it.

It's not blame if it's happening. I know, "If indeed any of it is true."

The voters did take the money away, rationales for why have been debated in these posts in detail. Apple you seem to be knowledgeable in some areas. Do the math. If every district employee and their spouse (child, mother, father, etc.) voted for a levy it would more than likely pass. I think the majority of district employees and other voters are 'for the kids' so what 'side issues' has caused the voters to take this money away. Just playing them down doesn't diminish their significance.

Also, this particular forum is supposd to be about AYP being an unfit measure. The other one about the levy has been removed.

September 8, 2009 at 9:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

Heritage, I will be interested to hear what you find out. Apple, the state formula and the property tax decrease are separate issues. The argument was about a percentage adjustment on the existing property tax, a review and reallocation based on the present basic needs. In all this discussion and debate on the issue one thing that is constantly overlooked is a levy is an additional tax and it is used for additional funding on top of existing funding from other resources. Levies like this require a public vote and that means buy in from the majority or a majority percentage to make it work. When some of these fail, they fail for a reason and should be in the best interest to find out why instead of re-introducing status quo solutions that have been proven not to work. If funding that is already authorized without any levies cannot totally support basic ops and that is a core argument, then these issues should not even be in a public vote, they should be in municipal arguments to secure proper funding, Levies should be used for improvements of processes, not basic maintenance and ops just to "keep the lights on." Many communities throughout the country forget that. This goes right to the core of why a sunset is not effective, if there was a permanant levy, this AYP issue in my view may have been less severe because increased funding could have been put towards it. Instead the sunset forces decisions to be put in place to hold back because of future state unstability for improvement funding. In CA, many municipalities utilize the mello roos method, perfectly legal and this an additional tax placed on property owners to assist with public service funding. There is no public vote on this, and it is not tied to propert taxes, It covers not only schools, but other public services as well. It is quite effective, the only problem with it is like now when there are too many foreclosures and no income coming in from those properties. But it works.

September 9, 2009 at 1:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Is it just me or has anybody seen the TF doing any campaigning for the levy? Or is it just as I thought they are following big business and the money trail.Less then 2 months till the public votes.Where are these door knockers at?

September 11, 2009 at 5:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

MM,[re: 5:43 AM] Nobody's knocked at my door, either.
I realize what I'm going to say now is not on topic, but...On television,yesterday,I noticed that Hall School had its l00th anniversary, with Superintendent Smith, speaking. Congratulations to Hall School! Webster had its celebration before it closed. Congratulations to Webster! Neely--pffft! No respect nor closure. Why not?

September 11, 2009 at 11:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Dillygent1,
I totally agree with you there was no celebration for Neely and their 100th year.Oh yes there was they shut it down and said you all will be sent all over town next year.And that is a good question why not.My door still has not been knocked on either. I guess my point in previous points is proving right they are just knocking on big business doors and a select few neighborhoods doors.I guess Heartland and thier attorneys their new campaign manager stumbled and did not hit the ground running as he had said.I think it is about a month and a half before the vote.They have a lot of doors to knock on by that time.But really I like to know what they are doing to campaign for the levy.

September 11, 2009 at 3:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

I just saw on St Joe Now the campaign manager for the TF and he said that he is trying to keep the 20 people focused on the issue for the levy for the november ballot. 20 people well I guess if they are going to do that door knocking they will not be getting to much sleep since they only have 20 people volunteering.Also was a gentlemen Kevin Kerby or something along those lines speaking and they said they were going to be speaking to the board and the public Monday at the board meeting I do not think they will be speaking to that many people to see what they want for one the board meeting cannot hold that many people that are still mad and they only have so much time set up for the meeting for public to address them.Whats wrong Mr campaign manager with holding a town hall type meeting to address just the public? The board are just puppets and Melody Smith has not clue on what she wants and what she does want will just get us more of what we got right now one heck of a mess.Seems like more BS to me and this group does not care about the general public wants.

September 11, 2009 at 8:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

MM, I've got an idea. What would you think of the school district filming their complete Board meetings? After all, they have their own video equipment, which films student programs, even basketball games, for their own cable TV channel 41. The City Counsel is transparent about showing their meetings. I think a lot of people would like to watch--especially those whose work hours don't permit them to go in person. They could show the Board meetings several times each month.

September 11, 2009 at 9:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

this is an email i received....As a community leader, you know a community that values the education of its children, values its future. Quality education means a higher quality of life for our children and our community. Funding quality education in our schools is a social imperative.
As a parent with experience in planning and community engagement, I was asked to research the Âbest practicesÂ- on the process and structure for community engagement and school long range planning. Sarah Siemens, School Board Member joined me on this research project and we were provided professional support by Dr. Melody Smith.
One of the best professional articles we reviewed was by Paul Johnson, Community Engagement? Lets Dance! I have attached the article for your review.
After talking with schools leaders across Missouri, reviewing school strategic plans, researching websites of school planning experts, meeting with an accreditation professional, talking with Missouri Quality Foundation and seeking input from the Missouri Commissioner of Education, we have asked one of the leaders in School /Community Engagement and Planning, UNICOM-ARC, to present a workshop on Engagement and Planning at the next St. Joseph Public School Board Meeting.
Please join me at the School Board Meeting on Monday, September 14th at 5:30 pm. Please note the Board Meeting will be held at Troester Media Center, 3401 Renick. I requested this location so we may accommodate a very large group of people. The workshop will be 30 minutes with 15 minutes for question. The School Board Meeting will be conducted following the workshop.
I appreciate your interest in the future of our schools and your offer to help. Here is how you can help:
Attend the meeting on Monday.
Share this invitation with as many people as possible. We would like to have all interested people in Community Engagement and Long Range Planning attend this meeting. I want no one excluded, so please share this information. One of the key drivers of our research is to find a means and process that will involve a large number of people from our community.
Thank you. I look forward to answering, with you, ÂWhat is best for our children and our future?Â-
Kevin Kirby Home: 232-5035 Cell: 383-1991

September 11, 2009 at 9:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Yea that is a great idea but I do not think they would do this for the Public.And there are people who cannot get to these meetings because of the hours they work. But what I do not understand the TF said they are going to be at this meeting to ask the public what they want from their schools and ask the board as well they need to have this meeting in a larger setting and have the board there along with Mrs Smith and allow more time for the public to express what they want and to ask questions and get answers.I know this is a opipe dream but I personally beleive this is what they need to do.This is a hot topic for me as you well know and I am sick of the evasion the board and the admin has toward the public.Yoy know by ahowing these meetings it would just generate more question and more phone calls going unanswered or returned to the people.

September 11, 2009 at 9:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

i strongly suggest that each and every member of the community who has any interest in this attend this meeting. the meeting before the board is not on the levy, but on the long range planning issues.

September 11, 2009 at 9:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

I would have to say what best for our children and our future did not happen when Neely and Webster was closed and what that did to the children and then add on top of that schools did not met and created overcrowding and children having no books and ect.And is not some schools with overcrowding issues it is alot of them.So what is best for our children right now?We are not going to get new schools anytime soon to replace the ones closed and we are still going to have schools pushed to their limits with the maximum number of children and if the children population grows in the next several years where are they going to have class on the front lawn of the schools?Also if we get more of Melody Smiths plan we are going to get more of what we got right now. NEW board members and New Superintendent would be a good start then preceed with a long term plan with community involvement nobody trust these people.passing this levy at this point does nothing for the current situsation unless schools are opened back up plain and simple.So if Mr Kirby if you read this please explain how the levy will help with the cirrent situation if schools are not opened back up.Also the school proposed for devils backbone is not a good idea to merge 2 schools into one to many student and is not a good idea for the children. Neighborhood schools is what we need not this wild pipe dreams Mrs Smith has for our district.I think there would be a place for her at Benton teaching again.

September 11, 2009 at 9:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

I guess I'm getting older, and as I get older, I hate meetings more and more. But I have a problem...I am sure I don't understand what the long-range planning committee is going to do, but don't we pay our school district administrators money to come up with such plans for a long range? To me it makes our current administration sound weak to want people to come in and tell them how to do their jobs. I can see a committee working to pass the tax levy, IF the district administration and school board have sold the TF on the fact that the district is on the right path. It seems to me that what the long range planning should be is rather clear. No Child Left Behind dictates progressive test scores. The business community wants a competent work force. The parents want their children to be able to read. These administrators are paid to come up with a plan that will achieve all these goals. They need to do their jobs, if they can. If they can't... maybe they need to do something else.

September 11, 2009 at 9:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

could not have said it any better Dillygent. And I think it is the later they cannot do their jobs or maybe they are decieding to listen to the public about what they want from our schools.I would have to be skeptical on that thought, why would they all of a sudden change their minds and want ppublic input?Also I might add we need to address the current situation as well before we can move forward. I want tot know what they plan on doing with all of the overcrowding as I said we have around 100 plus more students this year and classes are at the maximums and the teachers and local school admin are fustrated, as well as I have personally hear some express their opinions on the issue with school closings and redistricting and are not supporter of it as well.How can we move forward till we address the current situation they have caused?

September 11, 2009 at 9:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

MM, I think they need to answer to the public. That's why I like putting Board meetings in different areas of town and telecasting them, with no editing. [re: 9:08 PM]. They should telecast, anyway, because channel 41 is the school district's public access channel, and since we, the taxpayers, are paying for all of this, we ought to have a right to see what's going on from our livingroom. I just don't think a delegated authority, such as a task force or long range planning committee, can speak of the superintendent's vision. The question of over-crowding should be addressed by the administration, who closed the schools, not a task force that was selected after the schools were closed.

September 11, 2009 at 10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

In thinking about the idea of telecasting Board meetings... Why shouldn't students, who were mature enough to understand what was going on, be able to see them also? It might be a little lesson in civics for the students. Then nobody could say the district wasn't being transparent. What do some of you think about this idea?

September 11, 2009 at 10:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

dillygent you are correct the TF should not be addressing the issue of overcrowding the administration should but the want to jump onto the next thing on their agenda and have the TF do it for them. Instead they should be focused on cleaning up their mess they have created over the last 5 months and then move forward for the future.Really how can it be any other way? I know at work if I have a fire I have to get it addressed before any small issue I have or long term plan for the plant I may have.You can multitask but the most important or the fire needs to be taken care of first priority.And this mess they have created needs to be addressed first. I would love to see these meeting on their TV channel, their are people who work these hours and cannot attend as well as some people are handicap and cannot get to the meetings, there are a lot of different reason people cannot make these meetings.

September 11, 2009 at 10:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

diligent, i think the district does film the meetings. however, as far as i know, the tapes are not currently available to the public. if you wish to request a transcript you must pay for it, and the cost can be prohibitive. the minutes of the meetings are only a broad overview in a generalized sense.

your idea of telecasting the meetings is a good one. i think the BOE could definitely take a page from the council's accessibility playbook!!

additionally, students interested in careers in broadcasting/television/government could gain valuable experience by being involved in the taping and production.

i absolutely agree that both entities, the administration and the board, are passing the buck on responsibility. as far as i know from looking over the list of folks who are willing to serve on the committees, none are expert in school matters. this is not a "do one, see one, teach one" scenario.

i have read the article which the email comments on..... supt. smith actually gave it to me some time ago. i must say that the administration is not even remotely close to following its suggestions. another blind spot.......

September 11, 2009 at 10:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

MM, I'm in total agreement about the telecasting of Board meetings. I'm sorry but I feel all these task forces and meetings are just the school district dodging the issues. The district must meet these things head on--not the Task Force.To me the Task Force's job should be how to put a positive spin on the thing and sell it to the public for the election.

September 11, 2009 at 10:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Yes Diilygent1 I agree it is the districts way of dodging the issues at hand.I hope I did not come off any other way.I think the district,board,admin need to address the isses(mess) they have caused before the school district can move forward. As far as the TF I personally think they should have give their money they raised or just donated it to the district because I believe they are going to have a up hill battle getting this levy to pass and they will be wasting thier money. But Mr Myers said we needed this levy to straighten things out in our school,my repy was how is this levy going to solve the current issues in our schools is it going to open up school which should have not been closed till bonds were passed to biuld new ones.I heard no response from any of the TF members and you know they read these post.

September 11, 2009 at 10:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

AMEN, Heritage and MM, To go one step further [and I don't know this to be true at all], I would think Cablevision would welcome a chance to televise Board Meetings. Years ago, the Bradleys set up the school district to be able to broadcast programs and they used to appear on television, locally. I also like your idea of student involvement in these UNEDITED broadcasts. Personally, I think it is ludicrous to have to pay a large amount of money, for a copy of a report of a meeting, of an entity that depends on my tax dollars to exist. I still like school board meetings at different areas of town. It would be no problem to broadcast these meetings, as they broadcast student programs all the time, at various schools. And look at it this way...with Ken Shearin as our mayor and Vince Capell, our city manager, frequently at odds with each other, the Counsel will televise its meetings, why can't the school district?

September 11, 2009 at 10:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

MM, you talked about handicapped people who might appreciate being able to watch the Board meetings on television at home. There are also those handicapped or older people who might like to be at the meetings, in person. I know that there are ramps that go into at least some of the school gyms and that a lot of the gyms are on the main floors. People could park in the handicapped places and not even have to be concerned with curbs. They could walk or be wheeled right up the ramp and into the gym for the meeting. Actually, this would do the school district a favor,too, because it could potentially get people from various parts of town, into different buildings and potentially help sell their cause of needing new buildings.

September 11, 2009 at 10:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Heritage,
Correct me if I am wrong but the email that was sent to you that you shared with us here and I appreciate it,but why has not the TF and Mr Kevin Kirby publicized this meeting more to the public I wonder.We have several media news outlets in our community.Like I said if it has been out there and I missed it please correct me.All I saw was a 1 minute clip on St Joe Now and all of this info you shared with us was not mentioned.I still think something stinks with this group(TF)and I really do not trust them anymore than I do the SJSD/SB at this point.I also have a very hard time with Mr Myer saying we need this levy to make things right in the schools,I do not see how returning the levy will clean up the mess we have at hand know.Maybe they need to tell this to the children that are not getting as much one on one time with their teachers this year due to the number of children per class and the teachers who are fustrated and this has been a distraction for them as well.Is this the kind of progress we get from Mrs Smith a mess that at this point is being sweept under the table and forgotten?I do not think we can handle anymore of her plan because she cannot follow it.You have to have public support to implement your plan especially when it has to go to the voters first when you want money.You know I am not against the children, I just want people in charge to make good decisions and when they make bad ones except the fact that you screwed up and make it right not try to sweep it under the carpet and think it will go away.Accountablity and communication two works our administrators and board seem to not understand.

September 12, 2009 at 7:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

Dillygent,Heritage,
I see this morning in the metro that the TF will be hiring a outside firm to come up with a long term plan for the schools at a price of 80,300 dollars.I think it is the responsibility of the board,admin to be smart enough to come up with a plan with public support and input as to what we want from our communitys schools.Save the 80,300.Also it states Mr Roepe will be making 1,270 a week which will be 14,000 if Mr Roepe cared so much about St Joseph as he stated then why does he not do this pro bono?And they say they have only verbally got 20,000 they have raised that leaves them with 6,000 to fund their levy campaign as of now and they state they want to take surveys and ect.They also stated they will be contacting people who gave the last election and the chammber for a list of big Business for they can contact them as well where is the general public come into this?

September 12, 2009 at 8:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

heritage_sarahhochschwender says...

this is very sad news. an outside entity financed by a non-elected and completely independent group of yet to be fully identified individuals is fraught with transparency issues and with the potential for abuse.

i have a BIG problem with the time line for donations being made public. smaller donors will be revealed as the money comes in, but large donors will not be made public until two weeks before the election. i recall the BOE meeting where dr. smith was literally spitting with rage at the KC group with chairwoman watson weeping. is this a tit for tat on their part?

September 12, 2009 at 8:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

Heritage, [re: 8:37 AM] What KC group do you mean? I agree with you that it's interesting that they are keeping the big donations quiet until after the small donors have sacrificed.

September 12, 2009 at 12:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncourter says...

We should call for a public investigation on how this is being handle. An outside group, did we not in the last go around with this hammer an outside group for involvement, aka Reeder's group? This is bypassing the electorial process entirely, and this philosphy coming from a group of people who's majority base severely was critical of Reeder's group and outside interests involvement. Do they have committment by large entities of these funds to cover what they need or are they still soliciting?

September 12, 2009 at 1:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

I would think our district hired superintendent and her staff could put together a long term plan for the schools with the communitys input and support. Not have a outside group doing it.It almost seems as if this group has taken the school district over.After all of the bad PR the district has had you would think they would want to do this. Also after all of the bad PR you would think they would want to get the current situation addressed and calm the public down.You would think the TF would be focused on the levy at this point and not the long term plan for the schools.Like John has said above this group is bypassing the electorial process entirely.

September 12, 2009 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

John,
I agree we should have a investigation into how this group is handling this.

September 12, 2009 at 4:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

The best public relations is word of mouth. People that think that their school is the best, or that their principal is the best, or that they have heard a downtown administrator speak and he/she did a good job and really seemed to know their stuff. People talk about experiences, good or bad. For the St. Joseph School District administration, the opinion is not necessarily good. I think that for them to change their public image, they need to get out into the public and meet and relate to the public. I don't know Ken Reeder, so I really shouldn't say anything about him at all, but I still think he was grossly overrated. People had reasons, closer to home, to not support the bond and levy issues, in April. They had reasons that were not effected by Reeder, at all. As one who sometimes works fundraisers, I always like to observe when you see politicians. For the most part you only see them on election years, and sometimes, when they are running unopposed, you may not even see them, then. I'm afraid the school district powers that be, are the same way. You've got to keep in contact with your taxpayer base, and I don't think they do. I don't think they have accepted the fact that they need to do this. They really don't want to.

September 12, 2009 at 7:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

I would like to know if the TF has involved the group ACE at this point.This group did a lot of getting out into the community and talking to people and listening to their concerns. This would be beneficial to the TF because this would involve all of the community and not just a select few.

September 23, 2009 at 7:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

I think it would be a nice gesture if ACE were included. It would at least give the impression that they were attempting to involve more than just their own little group.Having said that, I don't see them doing it. I think there is some potential for "ego tripping,"in here. I don't expect the Task Force to be into giving and taking with ACE.Why should they? They [think they] know what's best. After all, you have some politicians in that group, who would like to improve their resumes and stature.

September 23, 2009 at 10:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mm1967 says...

No I really do not think ACE is gone I think they are just watching to see how things are going.

September 23, 2009 at 11:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dillygent1 says...

If you were not in the Gang of Four and not on the Task Force, what would be your motivation to speak up for the district on a school issue right now? You have no input. You definitely don't have the political clout of some of those on the Task Force or the Gang of Four.The only thing you could do would be to wait and see where you fit in, if you do at all. If I were a member of ACE, I would not want to work for the levy under those circumstances, because my job would be going door to door, trying to parrot talking points made by the Task Force, which I may or may not totally agree with.

September 25, 2009 at 10:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Memorii says...

I agree that the concept of No Child Left Behind is a good one, but the law goes about it the wrong way. There are many ways to go about fixing it, I'm sure. And I hope that something is done and that at least the larger problems with the law are fixed. :)

September 26, 2009 at 3:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )