about the school levy, i am curious, as to why closing down any elementry or middle school is so important, i agree they are old but so is benton, central and lafayette, could it be that the school district spends their money on the high schools to keep them in good repair because of sports, and leaves the elementry schools in disrepair, or is it because they want new elementry and middle schools in the new housing districts so the low income has to bus their children and those that are higher income do not

heads, up bdog, the next new plan will include closing lafayette.

to date the only documentation of the presence of mold in either hall or neely is anecdotal, or part of the survey done nearly a decade ago. there is a firm estimate of less than 3 million each for those neighborhood schools to be brought to STATE OF THE ART condition by a well respected historic developer who has a proven record in this city. the superintendent stated that no professional was paid to look at either school because the district Didn't Have The Money.

the citizens for progress claim they have gone on hiatus, but are still meeting, last at restaurant on the belt. at that meeting a state politician attended, but not a single member of the press. in fact, the NP is in possession of details of a large body of documentation in regards to the schools issue, and refuses to report it to the citizens with the claim that the closing of these schools is warer under the bridge.

DOES ANYBODY THINK THE VOTERS HAVE A RIGHT TO BE INFORMED?

"DOES ANYBODY THINK THE VOTERS HAVE A RIGHT TO BE INFORMED?"

Yes, but shhhh. We're being punished for the levy/bond not passing. Don't make them madder, or they'll take away school lunches or buses or something next.

I hadn't heard about Lafayette - that would be a public relations disaster.

Here we go again...

hey, i am ALL for the district building a new school which would be in keeping with the NE area. go for it. just don't tell me that it is even the least bit correct for the so-called citizens group to announce that they have gone on hiatus when they have not. don't tell me that it is just fine for a group leader to ignore requests for notification of meeting dates by a person who has been a neighborhood school activist and has proven their devotion to the schools repeatedly. that is complete horse hockey.

this is the exact attitude which got the levy and bond to fail. let the voters have the information before certain select members of the community "digest" it for them. the assumption that voters cannot think, cannot chose wisely is unacceptable. if this is the road the school administration and board is taking , then the issues will fail, to the detriment of the community.

H, "firm estimate"?

First, a estimate is merely a best guess. Not a contract price, but a guess based on various assumptions. Recall the housing authority office? Architect made a firm estimate of 1.3 million dollars. Bids were over 3.2 million dollars. I spoke with two contractors that declined to bid due to the poor nature of the plans & specs.

Second, the schools in question are functionally obsolete. Nothing can add more land (eminent domain here? now?). The most cost effective (both looking a capital and operating) was to build new buildings.

If Steve Foutch can bring the buildings current to code and make them functionally current, then he should be willing to sign a fixed price contract. If not, then he should butt out. Honestly, this argument of yours reminds me of Ellis Cross's assertation the KUMED wanted to buy the old Methodist Hospital and make it new hospital. (Think for a second ... KANSAS Uinv. Board of Regents ... a political entity of the State of KANSAS investing millions of KANSAS tax dollars in MISSOURI?)

I also wonder if Foutch is allowing for the prevailing wage aspects of public work?

h...you really missed your calling. I'm am certain that you would make a great author of fiction literature! That really does seem to be your strong suit.

To those who are questioning closing schools due to the age, the issue is not age. It is the health and safety of children. Talk to any teacher who has to take shots for allergies 9 months of the year only and see what they say. Neely was built over a spring. It has a constant source of water, no matter how much prevention you use. Hall School problems are largely due to runoff of water. Do you want your children on a gym floor that may collapse? Does your child have allergies or asthmatic conditions?

238, do you not have any problem with the statement by the superintendent that the district did not request written bids because they could not pay for them?

as to the schools being functionally obsolete, who is the qualified person which is asserting that "opinion"?

why did the district only ask one developer to give their opinion as a "friend of the community". as i understand this, the district did not ask for a written estimate, which begs the question why? was the amount so reasonable that the district did not want that figure made public? other local contractors were standing up in board meetings ballyhooing the "mini-stimulus" which they themselves stood to benefit from.

the chamber of commerce was willing to stand and give the opinion that companies will not move here because of our schools. was a single letter, or a single representative of any of those companies ever formally introduced? is it responsible for the board to base their decisions on an opinion of the chamber president without some tangible evidence to back that supposition up?

if some of the above concerns were to be addressed the voters might just believe the vision. as i see it, the voters saw smoke and mirrors.

again, i am all for a nice spanking brand new school in the NE. have at it. just be sure to use some academically viable studies to show that this will be the best move for the learning environment of the populations, and be prepared to back those promises of savings through consolidation up.

First, a estimate is merely a best guess. Not a contract price, but a guess based on various assumptions. Recall the housing authority office? Architect made a firm estimate of 1.3 million dollars. Bids were over 3.2 million dollars. I spoke with two contractors that declined to bid due to the poor nature of the plans & specs.

________________________________________________________________________

and the estimates of the two proposed new schools? is there already an architect's plan submitted upon which those estimates were based? i haven't seen even a rendering in the hallways or in any meeting which i have attended? please inform me.

dilly, the former principal of neely received a letter from the EPA which offered to do a mold investigation. that letter????..... in the trash. tell me, if the basis for moving from neely was mold, and the district clearly wanted to make that move, why would they have declined a EPA certification of the building?

Dr. Smith admitted that she had asked Steve about hall/neely on her own "as a favor". She stated the cost was $102.00 per square foot. The total square footage of both Neely and Hall is about 35,000 sq. ft. combined, so we could have two upgraded buildings to compare to a brand new building for about $3.5 million. when asked by a citizen why Dr. Smith didn’t share this information with the public and smith said, "NOBODY ASKED”.

Heritage, Litigation????

dilly, directed towards whom? i believe there are already two separate sunshine violations requests, one filed, and one pending.

Heritage........you are long on "opinions". Most often seeking "tangible evidence".

Let's think about where the chamber person would have acquired his/her "opinion" with respect to the conclusions of out of towners exploring the possibility of moving their business to St Joseph....

They reached that conclusion in a face to face conversation when the person exploring St Joseph made positive comments about certain dimensions of St Joseph and a negative comment about the schools they saw. Now that seems like a very reasonable basis to conclude what the obstacle to new business in St Joseph might be.

Maybe the real problem is the negative attitude such as yours. I'm inclined to think the Chamber representative is truthful and you have served up no "tangible evidence" to the contrary.

I suppose you'll ask where I got "tangible evidence" for that conclusion.

heritage....you continue to state that a letter regarding the mold issue from the EPA has been sent and discarded. are you sure of this information or just another statement you are throwing out there as fact and is actually fiction? did the principal tell you this or did you go through the trash and find the letter?

It is posts such as these that do not let us (the community) move forward.

238er - Estimate, a best guess like the "projected" numbers of the district.

Given a proven track record, the assessment of Mr. Foutch appears far more credible.

Maybe when EVERYONE quits trying to find someone else to point the finger at, then St. Joe will progress forward. There’s plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the issue…

Could the school board have done a better job communicating the issues to the public? Yes

Could voters have done a better job educating themselves? Yes

Does Melody Smith control the decisions of the school board? No

Does the school district have a better fundamental understanding of a school system than the average citizens? Yes, in my opinion.

Did Mr. Shearin, the leader of the community, give his thoughts on the issue? No…well, not until after the vote which illustrated his true leadership skills.

Did the City Council provide leadership? No

Who elected the individuals responsible for guiding the community (the school board, mayor, and city council)? You, the voter!

When EVERYONE realizes that YOU hold the responsibility of coming together with everyone else then things will begin to change. You’re never going to get a resolution that makes everyone 100% happy but by working together instead of pointing fingers you might reach a decision that everyone chooses to live with rather than being forced to live with.

To Heritage, you might want to look at the EPA web site. Think about it, if you send your child to school, don't you expect that child to be safe from, say, abuse? If the school possesses an unsafe environment, say air quality, are you not wanting to do something about it? Let he who has ears to hear...

does anyone recall the projected construction amount for the school at the carden park location?

The EPA is interested in clean air in all federal buildings. They are interested because mold problems can be a health issue. These problems can drain finances of families because of allergy shots, asthma treatments and other lung disorders. The best thing to do is to let clean air guidelines prevail in these buildings. I seriously doubt that any real study on the air safety of these buildings has occured.

first, apple it is the sunshine law you are referring to. second i did not say that the group is violating it, i said that they claimed to have gone on hiatus( that means not meeting) when they are actually Still meeting, and Formulating Policy Recommendations. if a citizen asked to be included in this group, one who has been instrumental in helping pass other measures, and was denied any information on the dates and times, then i have a real problem with that kind of behavior. that is precisely why the last initiative failed. that is not called "grassroots" it is "underground".

i want the voters to know that they could have had COMPLETELY REHABILITATED existing buildings of an appropriate size in their Neighborhoods for about one third of the cost of the NEW school approved for carden park. you can Have the large and appropriately sized new school in the NE. everyone is happy, and the taxpayers are saved the completely unnecessary and ill conceived huge school on the devil's backbone.

it is called thrift, and compromise.

In all of the blogs today, it seems that everybody has forgotten one basic fact. One school, with a mold and termite problem, is still open. Another school, with no reported mold or termite problem, is closing. According to the newspaper, 1400 kids have been displaced. I really think that is really more the issue than beating up Neely and those who want to defend it.

diligent...... i am such a dolt i just figured out your name...... and the appropriateness of it!!!

webster closing is Criminal. if you look at the underlying reasoning and the NCLB / AYP issues, it comes into focus. of course, the district doesn't want to even go near that one.

H, the carden park school was to replace two schools, neely and hall. I believe the budgeted amount was 18 million. Both have structural and functional issues. Also, the cost to operate the new school was going to be less than operating two schools so there were some savings there.

Webster is closed because the population of its' district was insufficient to fill it. Nothing more, nothing less.

thanks 238 for remembering that figure. i had about that amount in my mind ( such as it is...), also.

18 mil, vs a top end estimate of say 8 mil ( even with the predictable overruns) to completely upgrade two heritage neighborhood schools sounds like a good compromise for me. you remember my issues with school size in low SES neighborhoods so i won't belabor that again.

build the new school in the NE which is Completely appropriate in both size and style for the newer subdivisions.

lol, i was getting bored, nothing exciting going on and the school levy is always good for getting a lot of comments lol

hahahaha, this coming from the person who had such a fit on the no-no vote that comment after comment was deleted?

sorry, but i care and want to see the next option before the voters to be more informed, more targeted and better supported by evidence and science.

my concern is for the students and the success of their education. period. cost savings are not the sole issue in my mind, in fact, it is one of the last. you get what you pay for, IF you are represented by scrupulous and imaginative professionals.

Does anyone else find it ironic that the school board/district was catching heat before the vote because they had not stuck to their word? Now, they stick to their word and it's called punishment.

If there's one thing that the school board did communicate effectively it was that these two schools were going to be closed regardless of the outcome of the vote. That being the case, then how can it be punishment? Basically, the levy/bond issue had no impact on the closing of these facilities. However, it greatly impacted the ability to provide future generations with new, modern schools.

If you'd like to call them mega schools, then that's fine. But I'm willing to bet many parents from "neighborhood" schools would have been beating a path to a mega school. The problem is that we do not get have our cake and eat it too.

insideout, the neighborhoods which voted against ( or didn't bother to vote on) the two issues were the ones which would have been in that carden park school. those are the parents whose children won't get the tutoring because the bus leaves before it starts, and who won't be on the athletic teams because they have no way to get to the practice, and feel far too small and insignificant in large school populations to even believe they might have a chance at quarterback, much less water boy. i know someone who has a letter from one of these children which would make any caring individual lose a lot of sleep. these children need a voice.

apple, in my darkest moments i have not called you an idiot. think about it.

and one thing which no one gets is YOUR NAME.

*wink*

Heritage - In regards to your last point about students not being able to make it to tutoring or athletic practices. I do not believe that it was the SJSD intentions to send all of the students from the closed schools to the new schools but they would have performed re-districting after the new schools were built. Yes, some students would have to travel farther but no one has mentioned the kids that would not be traveling as far because of the new school in their neighborhood. My guess…it’s about a wash.
Furthermore, I am quite positive the SJSD would have accommodated students travel needs. However, the SJSD did not effectively communicate that point…instead, they got caught up in defense mode.

As for the sports, I will pretty much second Apple's points.

Elementary schools DO HAVE after school athletic teams held at the schools. If you don't think so, you should look at some of the schools on Saturday mornings during basketball season. The games are on Saturday mornings and their practices are anytime after school lets out into the evening. Some schools even have cheerleaders. I can also add the fact that there is a city wide elementary track meet, held at one of the high school tracks. You can also check the newspaper sometimes to see which school one which tournament in town. Some of the coaches are volunteer coaches from the community and some are PE teachers.

Dillygent1...If I am incorrect, then I stand corrected. However, I believe what you will find is that on the surface basketball appears to be associated with the schools but it is not. Yes, the SJSD does allow the usage of school buildings but the games are not organized by the SJSD. At the elementary level all of the coaches are volunteers and therefore any interested PE teacher could be involved. The district does not provide transportation for middle or high school athletes to practices so why should they offer it elementary students.

You are most definitely correct, there is an elementary track meet, I've worked it numerous times. However, most elementary schools do not have "practice" outside of school hours for this competion. Unless things have changed, it is usually the students which seem to excel in running, jumping, and throwing events based upon the PE teachers observations. The practices generally are performed during PE class time and involve all students.

webster will be staying open. They are using it for the Rainbows program...
Did you know that Skaith is now going to be the most overcrowed school in the district. Did you know that one area of Skaith was so full of mold that they could not move a special ed class into that part of the building, but yet we have been allowing students and teachers to work in that room for who knows how long exposing them to mold.
DID you know that Deer Park Learning Center which is a PRESCHOOL is being closed due to poor building conditions, and guess where all the kids will go. INTO SKAITH! We now will have 3 classes of each grade level, plus we are to find room to house the preschool.
When my kids went to preschool I paid for them to go....
Why should our school have to take on those students?
Skaith will be losing its computer lab in order to make another classroom (which means our children lose another advantage), that won't even be large enough for the two classes they are trying to fit into it.
Our band will now have to use the library to practice because we have no other rooms avaliable for anything.
How will our students move through the lunch room? I guess kindergarten can eat at 9:30am
This is an outrage and something should be done about it.
I challange any reporter to look into this and report on the injustice that they want to call education!
This would be an issue if we had passed the levey.. Someone should have found a new building for the DPLC not shove them into our hallways!
You mentioned above the "sports" in elememtary. What a joke, if you are lucky enough to have some parents willing to take on a basketball team you might get a day a week to practice in a gym that has two hoops at each end. Unlike our priviate schools that have nice big open gyms with two hoops, a basket full of balls and a working score board.
And this is a leauge that isn't through the school. they just "let" us use the gym for practice

Heritage is correct in all she states. I have documented proof. If anyone wants to see the proof, please call me at 816-977-4555. I too want the best we can offer for all kids in St. Joseph and that's why I asked for the facts to support a new request for a levy and bond issue. I found there is no proof of a mold issue at Neely, in fact, the entire building can be renovated to compare to a brand new building for less than $2 million. If we give up the fight for our school, how will voters support a bond to build a new school at Carden Park? I asked Dr. Smith for the district's strategy for success and she couldn't offer anything. Once our kids are absorbed into other schools, voters may not see the need for a school in our community. Do I think St. Joseph has the very best teachers in the world? Yes! I know my kid will get a great education at Parkway, but I know there are many families who live west of 22nd Street who will not have reliable transportation to allow their child to participate in the athletic programs where practice takes place at the schools, nor will they have transportation from after-school tutoring. Families that used to walk to family night functions may not be able to attend these important educationally bonding events. Dr. Smith did a good thing by paying $4 million down on the 2000 bond and she did a good thing by saving $32.5 million in reserves. I believe the fear of No Child Left Behind is causing the closing of our schools. Hyde, Hosea, Edison and Neely failed to meet (AYP) Annual Yearly Progress in 2008. We will know who failed in July or August for 2009. If Neely and Edison failed again, the district would have to implement school improvement programs that include additional teaching staff, professional development strategies or after school tutoring which could cost a great deal of money that is not fully funded by the federal government. Closing Neely and Webster and shifting kids will eliminate the added costs at Neely and if Edison failed again, they will be ok by 2010 because of all the Webster kids who will be shifted to that school. By the way, Webster has met AYP just like our Blue Ribbon Schools at Eugene Field and Coleman. I want to see every elementary school in St. Joseph become a Blue Ribbon School. This is my vision for our community.

My comment was not that after school basketball was sponsored by the school district. It was that it is OFFERED in the school buildings. I would disagree slightly about track, in that at some schools, a few weeks before the track meet, practices were held after school.

I also would add that one of the earlier blogs stated that a request was made for an EPA test at Neely, and the then principal turned it down and through the request away. Therefore, no report would exist.

Webster met AYP because they "teach to the test". Edison choses not to use that strategy and this thus faulted for not meeting AYP but does produce overall better students. This is one of the problems with the NCLB approach is that it allows this teach to the test strategy.

NCLB is fine as long as it is merely a tool to measure, but when a school skews the results like Webster has then it becomes meaningless.

Does anybody know if the EPA or any other organization, offers grants for repair of mold infested buildings?

238, i know many webster parents who would strongly object to that assessment. if that is the case, then the school district should immediately stop crowing when any school makes a "grade" which results in an award.

i do not like the unfunded mandate of NCLB, however, the goal is laudable.

diligent, you should call mckica. she speaks the truth, and is a person with impeccable past support of the schools.

i have spoken to the EPA /KC and their comment was that many schools are loathe to allow/request help in mold assessment. while mold is not a federally mandated inspection, asbestos is. if , during the course of a mold inspection, asbestos is discovered, the feds can force the district to remediate. from what i understood, in the case of mold the EPA will evaluate and give assistance/advice on remediating, but NO mandatory action has to take place.

from a personal standpoint, having an old home myself, i know that mold has to be solved at the root of the problem, or it keeps coming back. i believe that there was action to clean up at neely years ago, but since the underlying problem is a foundation issue it comes back. there are as many different kinds of mold as there are schools in the system. some are harmful, some benign. just like poison ivy...... some people have allergies to mold, and some do not.

as for the spring which runs beneath the school, there are many homes in this city which have historic cisterns in their basements.

the schools self report on the issue of asbestos.

Apple and Everyone who reads the paper and cathy's published letters are invited to come comment about and add input to our OPEN meetings. we are NOT purposely trying to keep our meetings quiet, nor have we changed the name of them ( we are so informal i don't even think we Have Name, yet) to have an excuse for having announced that they are no longer taking place. furthermore, no one is trying to defeat the levy.

cathy mckinley has an unimpeachable reputation of being FOR the schools. she has no hidden agenda, is a terrific rational spokesperson. the district would be well served to have a person of such impeccable and documented respect for students and parents.

again,apple, since you choose to snipe anonymously it is impossible to actually verify your own agenda.

do you, apple, think that not bringing up the mold issue because the district fears reprisal is an appropriate response? notwithstanding your assertion that mold was never an issue for closing, that is............

......the majority of students in high school can hitch a ride with their driving buddies, and the more affluent neighborhoods have access to transportation, apple. even 7/8 graders can ride the bus safely in pairs. not so with vulnerable elementary students.

there are elementary after school activities, school sponsored or not. particularly in title one schools all adjunct activities for tutoring must not displace school hours. how are these students to take advantage of those services with parents who do not own a car? you keep looking at this issue from your own particular POV.

you will not find a single post where i advocate bussing to achieve economic parity.

i don't even know when to clap in a foot ball game, so shoot me. the analogy is valid.

do you actually think that voters are swayed by comments here? this is fantastic. no, wait, it is delusional.

i have to go sway some voters. the hard way. face to face.

H, under the graduated license law, teen drivers (16 to 18) are not allowed to drive a car with anyone else under 19 who is not an immediate family member.

http://dor.mo.gov/mvdl/drivers/gradlaw.htm

How far off point do we need get before the community can begin to move forward? The decision has been made, the plans put in place and now it's time to live with it and figure out step two. This non-stop arguing over what and which "grass-root" group is doing what is absurd.

The fact that there are now apparently two "grass-root" groups moving in opposite directions but both advocating they know what's best for the schools is leading to a train wreck...the only thing this situation creates is a farther divide within the community.

After reading most of these blogs, I came up with a somewhat negative conclusion. Nobody seems to want to discuss the welfare of the young people who go to these schools and what is best for them. All of these blogs resulted from a letter that had nothing to do with agendas, law suits or discrediting people. I would close by asking one other question. If the schools really have nothing to do with these athletic practices, who is liable if a child is injured on school property?

Apple, thanks for the info. I honestly did not know about the liability. As for the new schools, we need them, but I doubt given the average job in St. Joseph and what it pays, it might be hard to do, unless you look into other ways to build schools, such as metal buildings. I understand they can be made to look good and they are strong. However, sad to say, even though they are strong, they would suffer from bad public relations. I would also say that I am for safe and healthy schools, not necessarilly new ones.

Just a curiosity...why doesn't anybody want to discuss reopening Blair School or the use of alternatives to brick schools? Another question...Other than existing school and district buildings, how much land does the St. Joe School District own and where are the locations of the land?

I really believe that if less time was spent on trying to move forward to continue to promote an existing plan that has problems with it and more time was spent on trying to develop a larger long term plan that addresses every building, this would be a much more effective approach. It also would receive much more buy in from the public. For those who believe there is nothing to the No Child Left Behind issue, I strongly recommend to take time out and learn about it, whether or not you agree or disagree with the effectiveness of the program or whether school districts are making decisions to skirt around fulfilling the requirements of the mandate. My opinion is pretty straight forward, there is a lot of merit to it being a failed program and creating decision processes that are attempting to work around it. With that said, the program itself needs to be challenged if districts do not agree with it and it is creating things that cannot be achieved or this program is influencing decisions that would be different if the program did not exist. Out of all the issues facing this city, this one has turned into a very heated and often times ugly debate. Regardless of which side of the fence anyone is on with this, the put downs, name-calling, slamming of complete groups of people because they did not agree with the plan that failed is certainly not a productive approach moving forward. A program should be developed that addresses all schools, their current state, and what is going to be done to all them in the future, whether it is 5, 10, 15 years, etc, and that is what everyone in the community should be striving for, regardless of what group affiliation. Every school we have in this city there should be the confidence of taking anyone through it and being proud of showing it off and what it has achieved with students without worry. That should be part of a mission statement and if it is not, then we will continue to debate this issue over time. Arguments to progress need to be solid, well founded, and there needs to be assurance that they do not contradict themselves several years down the road. In my view, arguments of the past are hurting the present course for the future, and those need to be addressed and overcome. The entire population also needs to be encompassed and engaged, I mentioned to a representative of the Coalition about a month back that a very large number of the population base here works odd hours, 2 jobs, etc, and they are unable to attend council, school, community meetings, etc and that in my view is a core reason why many of these meetings are not well attended. There should not be the line that people do not care, that is the wrong approach.

The core of this city works those hours and they are the people that need to be reached out and to gain buy in from in whatever is being proposed. Which would also explain why a large portion of the age group who is most likely to have children did not come out and vote, they were not engaged and many of them work these hours to support their families. Until we as a community, community leader both public and council begin to understand our own population base and begin to engage it as a whole, there is always going to be a challenge on issues. Out of all the forum participants on here about this issue, one person has came out and gone further then anyone, by posting her number and encouraging anyone to call to listen to her. Regardless of your viewpoints, take time out and do just that, I strongly encourage it. And the No Child Left Behind act, how long has been in play and is it being successful? It has been out there long enough there should be results, issue, on a national level we as a country should be beating out some other countries by now, and this nation is not. Every year the US continues to fall behind. Locally, things here on the education front have been neglected far too long. There should already have been a permenant levy in place and the argument should be that that we need to fund it to improve our processes moving forward, not about about what we get or do not get from a state formula, which no longer will apply. In my view what hurt this more than anything are 2 issues, that it was previously campaigned back in 2004 with a sunset clause that eluded to the district may not need it in the future and the fact that some arguments were successful in keeping the older buildings open when now the same groups and individuals who argued that were now arguing the buildings are too old, not safe, etc. For the record, if the buildings are not safe, then they should already be closed. Same with the mold issue, if it was truly a concern, then the issue should have been corrected or the building already closed . Make the arguments strong ones without appearance of threats, initimidation, etc.

Gain buy in from the majority of the population from the very start, not 50%, shoot for 80 to 85% before it goes to vote, then when the time comes for the ballot, there will be no need to launch a huge campaign to convince the public, you will already have the buy in. If there is any credence to the former Coalition group that has since changed its name that it is now being “selective” about who is involved in it or how it publicizes its meetings., in my view that is not a good approach to be utilizing. It needs to be engaged with the public as a whole because at some in time this group will asking for public support and if there is a perception the public is being alienated by those who are representing certain areas and neglecting others, the move forward to gain support will be a challenge. . It is time we band together as a community, address the issues and fix them, and that means all of it, address it with a long term approach for every school building and improvement of every neighborhood!!!

Maybe all I really know after reading these whole dang comments is that apple and heritage sound like the perfect drinking buddies who can hold their own with me and my friend Mr. Daniels. Oh the things we could debate!

If you remove this comment........well......go ahead! Jack and I are just clever enough to figure out how to re-post. Watch out for us braniacs public!

It still seems to me that everybody is doing what this town does so well, avoiding the issues while trying to not think about the good of the whole. We seem to be interested in only pushing our own agendas and not listening to anyone else. A different opinion, no matter how long, does not mean its owner is your enemy. He may see things that you don't, from a different angle. To John, some of the school district administrative team of 2009 is different than the team in 2004. I will say that I feel that the team in 2004 was a lot more tactful, more interested in input and more willing to ask questions.

Apple I did not "slam" the group. I made several suggestions on how it could improve and gain support. It is ultimately up to them how they approach the public. There are some tactics being utilized out there I disagree with. I also disagree with your philisophy of the city will "never grow foward". There are a lot of good things happening out there right now and if you cannot envision that, that is unfortunate. This school issue has hit the top of the list, and it needs to be resolved for the long term, not just for severals and then later on down the road we are back at it. There was no long term plan that I have ever read. It was a plan to address needs in the east and west ends of the city which are valid needs. However it did not encompass a plan for every building. Successful educational structures in other communities encompass that, that is why they have very little issue when they need to get a bond passed, etc. They have a long term plan that addresses all their facilities and they utilize it. For the record, I did vote yes for both the levy and bond, however I did not agree with all of its arguments or the entire plan. I think the plan needs to be re-evaluated and a stronger more aggressive plan proposed that addresses all of it. The present initiative while it some long term elements for improvements, did not address that. So my question to you Apple, is what are you doing to help move things forward? You have had made some very good and interesting points about this issue. Are you leading anything, proposing anything, campaigning, etc? Or are you going to continue to call 12,000 people idiots and stupid for voting on what they did not agree with? In my view, they did not like the plan as proposed, so we should be finding out why and get away from the above mindset. In saying that, I believe if the levy comes back to the ballot, it needs to come back as a permenant levy, not one with a sunset clause and there needs to be solid arguments to get buy in from all. Not utilizing the same ones from the past go around but different and solid arguments. This one needs to be put to bed and then there needs to be move on to the bond issues with a different approach. Address it all, all neighborhoods, all buildings, and it will fly.

a lot of continued discussion here, after i left to participate in the juneteenth parade. ( which , btw, was an unqualified success and whose organizer, steve holdenreid, should be congratulated on!)

john, you know that i always value your input. your well measured, carefully considered, and mannered approach is invaluable. citizen examination of this issue will surely result in a plan which represents the entire community, as it should be.

"And while the theme of this year’s festival is a serious one, there will be plenty of fun as well. The celebration kicks off tonight with a graduate reception starting at 5 p.m. at John Lucas Park. The reception will include a DJ, basketball, praise dances and arts and crafts until 10 p.m."

the theme was NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND. maybe if you read any other articles than the schools issues you would have known that.

you should seriously consider calling cathy and getting directions to the grass roots meeting today. ALL are honestly welcome to participate, just as steve holdenreid was graceful in welcoming our participation in the parade.

working together would be nice for a Change. hurry and call so you don't miss a golden opportunity.

It's the "Juneteenth celebration," not the "june 13 celebration," to commemorate the abolition of slavery in Texas on June 19th, 1865, thereby officially emancipating slaves in all of the United States. Education is a wonderful thing, apple, when you participate in it instead of just proselytizing about it.

As for this dead horse that you've been beating for months now, apple, all I can say is you are losing more votes than gaining them with your rhetoric, insults, and good ol' GWB attitude of "yer either fer us or agin' us." In the words of the infamous Archie Bunker, "Awww, stifle, already."

<grabs the dead horse by the ears and tries to drag it out of the room to give it a proper burial>

Apple,

I'm a pretty easy going guy. Usually I keep my mouth shut because I know that butting in on the fight of someone else is not good for me. But come on, have we not heard enough about this elementary teams do not have sports teams? It aint rocket science.....anyone who ever went to elementary schools knows that there are not sports teams. You are doing yourself no favors by harassing someone to admit a mistake that EVERYONE knows about. You want heritage to admit it? Sure, I am positive she will admit it was a screw up.....just as soon as you admit that you are acting so incredibly out of line that second graders look like philosophical scholars when they are in your presence.

Whats the issue here? You got a beef with the way schools are run and taxes are allocated and all that mumbo jumbo? Do yourself a favor and stick to it. The minute you start degrading someone and picking on them for petty nonsense you crossed a line that no longer allows anyone to take you seriously. And clearly heritage does not because you are so consumed with such trivial things that you are not warranted a reply. And for that matter......you won't get one from me either.

After observing all these blogs, I still think we've gotten away from the original intent of the letter to the editor. It was suggesting a way to still close two schools that were somewhat less than desireable, and use two school buildings that the district already owns. Instead it's become a territorial battlefield. I do feel that the discussion of other materials (than brick) should come into the discussion. For example, what if a new metal building could be placed on the old Neely site. It may not be feasible, but at least it should be discussed. Technology has come far enough that maybe a new building could be placed there that might have a way to divert water, keeping a mold problem from happening. Metal buildings can be half the cost of a traditional building and many districts are using them now. They don't have to look like storage sheds any more. There are facades that they can put on them so that they don't even look like metal.

I rarely weigh in on these overdrawn postings that have gone way off track and become personal forums for petty bickering for certain individuals. The letter and many of the resulting comments are valid attempts to approach a problem that is going to continue to plague this city until we can finally work together and develop a real solution. That's not the case for apple in any comments in this discussion or any discussion I've ever seen him/her post.
No, apple. Tony, Hcat and others won't get angry about your continually negative and petty posts. Why would anyone get angry? We can't take you seriously because of your approach and your personal vendettas. In every forum where you've posted, the comments are usually childish, blathering statements that have no meaning or significance. The only reason I even caught this last post of yours is because it was the last post of this article (so far). I just skip your posts and I am now publicly encouraging others to do the same. Heritage - don't bother acknowledging apple's yammering; you are too far above it. And I say that even though our opinions don't always agree. apple will continue the personal attacks as long as people respond. That's not productive for anyone, so don't respond. In business, we encounter people like apple and we don't waste our time debating them. If we find common ground, then we work from there. But usually someone with these types of comments are just interested in hearing themselves quack, so we just move on to a new client. And apple can rest assured that is exactly what I will do with any retort that may be laid out here. Save yourself the trouble because I'll never read it.

A state of the art school, such as Blair, would not require 4 million dollars. Remember, it is the district's technology headquarters. Go visit sometime. It would require putting desks in it, kitchen equipment, a few other things. A building, such as Webster, which just closed, needs nothing.Neither building needs a mold clean up. They're ready to go. This sounds like good stewardship of the taxpayer's money, to me.

Just a clarification on an earlier post regarding "Juneteenth." The Emancipation Proclamation did not free all the slaves in the United States; it freed only those in the states that were in rebellion.

Question: By doing what the district is doing as it relates to redistricting, they are alienating some of those who voted for the tax issues. By opening Blair and keeping Webster open, the moves wouldn't have seemed so extreme. Also, remember, we are still using one building which the district said was bad and would soon close, Hall. If you were the district, would you rather be seen as dealing in good faith or just bullying when you asked the taxpayers for money, now rumored to be a 96 cent permanent levy?

It is not what IS or what they DID. It's the community's PERCEPTION of what happened that really matters.

Apple, I would hope that you are not connected with the school district or its administration because, if you are, you are not doing too good a job of community relations. Does administration exist for "kiddos" (not my term) or does the district administration only exist to stay hired, live well and disregard public opinion? If the school district does not know what being responsive to the community is, they had better, very well learn. Because, after all, as of now, they are 0 and 2.

First off, your seeming "authoritativeness" about all things district. Second, your knowing about the 2 years, emphasizing 2 years that it took to formulate a plan that they are PAID to do. Third, your insistence to not look at alternatives. In business, we tell you to never second guess, you were right because you decided to do it. Your inability to look at two sides of an issue would make me think you are a "decider", which administrators view themselves to be. Need I go on?

What is the average salary of St. Joseph in comparison with other communities which are currently building schools? I can't help it if the district's only option was building schools. I cannot help it that one of the schools remaining open is one of the schools they said should be closed. I cannot help it if the school district doesn't have foresight to want to look at other types of structures for schools. This is not a wealthy community. The previous administration understood this. Do we need new buildings? Yes, we do. The fact is that we may need plenty of new buildings in future years, because we have not kept up with the rotation of building new schools as some other communities have. Therefore, even though the current administration is not responsible for the past, they really are responsible because of their positions. Given the economy, they should even be more careful than they would normally be about what they propose.

As for apple,I am posting one comment and one comment only. I for one am just not reading anything they write here. I haven't read anything here from apple since well before the vote took place. It never changes anyway. I say don't read her/his postings or comments at all, therefore no thumbs down or thumbs up. He/She will never see any point of view or any possibilities except for her/his own. She/He calls others names and puts down almost everyone,and then of course there is the theme of repeat ,repeat, repeat, like that makes it true or important. I for one vote to just Ignore her/him completely.

The fact is the people can't vote on Light and Power rates, but sadly, they can vote on school issues. I am using the fact that the school district has not in recent memory asked voters to ok new schools. This tells me that past administrations did not really think they could pass. Using your arguments about tin cans, that means there are some church "tin cans" in town and there is a web site that tells all about metal school buildings. I sincerely hope that you are not a member of the school district, because, with your attitude and demeanor, the district will have trouble passing anything by those who read your comments. Also, sadly, you berate Heritage, who, at least is trying without badmouthing everybody. If you don't want these issues to pass, just keep talking.

Like I said, Keep talking. Nothing will pass. You are the best thing the NO voters have going for them. Apple has to be a school administrator or a school administrator want-to-be or somebody who really just likes to argue and bully and deep down really doesn't care whether the issue passes or not. Some people just enjoy a fight for the sake of a fight, which is totally counterproductive. Hope you enjoyed your night away from the silliness, Heritage.

Dillygent, you give our voters too little credit. I don't believe the voice (or in this case, fingertips) of one unknown person is going to sway many voters either way.

You may also be giving this message board too much credit. I believe it is pretty much the same group of people posting every day, and many are not even from St. Joseph. I wonder if the NP would share the numbers with us?

This woman is a bully. If we actually got to build our new schools, she would be sitting on the playground waiting for the kids to come out so she could shake them down for lunch money.

No one has the right to dog another poster and then gleefully proclaim that she got her to stop posting. I can't understand why the NewsPress allows her to continue posting with comments like this:

apple: 'Thus far I have succeeded in getting Heaitage to stop postings. At least she has seen she is no match for my logic and cannot argue against true facts. She understands that someone will stand and say "that's not true"'

i have certainly admitted that i am wrong, and post examples of those admissions
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i further grossly transcribed in my brain the names stonecrest and greystone. they all sound the same to me....... and i humbly admit that i was wrong.

thanks you for that deserved correction! i was unaware that the program required that the student have participated for the entire four year program in order to benefit from IB.

the (MY) use of "funny" was inappropriate.

sorry to have been so knee jerk ( accent on the jerk) in regard to your comment min88. hopefully one of the Bros. will come here and comment once the deal is finalized. i am admittedly defensive about downtown as i am a huge supporter of her re-vitalization.

to apple. for some time now i have not allowed "let go and let god" to be a guiding presence in my life. i have made taunting and belittling comments to you in this forum. i realize that we both disagree completely on some issues,and it was completely wrong of me to make this a personal issue. this has been a lifelong struggle and one of my worst shortcomings. i am sincerely sorry for allowing my personal and picayune behavior to be vented in a public forum. i resolve now not to taunt you anymore, and recognize that it is utterly childish for me to do so. i extend my hand to you now in truce, and accept that this constant need on my part to "win" is not acceptable. i will continue to post here, and i hope with all my heart that this conflict will stop. for my own part, i pray that we can at the very least just "agree to disagree". sincerely. sarah hochschwender

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i stand by my comment that children in schools whose parents do not have the ability to transport their children to after school activities will suffer. these children are in the highest risk of dropping through the cracks. quarterback or waterboy, i stand by my comment.

i also stand by my sincere apology to apple, and urge civility.

no, i am not going anywhere. as a mater of fact i have been busy DOING something rather then just blathering. think of me as a waterboy, if you will. i am also not an "idiot" who will continue to beat this conversation to death.

I am just happy that Heritage is back, giving her opinions, largely due to the fact that I feel she does care for the children. More and more on Apple's blogs, the children do not seem to be in the picture with the priority I feel they should be. I feel that if Hall was one of two buildings that was said to not be the healthiest of schools, it should have been closed. Sometime, it was hinted by one of the comments that Neely might have been closed because of AYP, which they had maintained, according to the newspaper, until about 2 years ago. However, if that is the reason the school did close, then children's health is obviously not the priority. The test scores, and how they affect adults, have become the priority, and that is sad. Apple, I even like hearing from you, if you keep to the facts, and don't taunt others. In other words, please play nice on this schoolyard.

Quoting from "The ABC's of Building a School Building" , " School buildings framed with steel metal are more resistant to water, mold [Neely], mildew, termites [Hall], and other wood destroying insects than standard wood-framed buildings. In addition, building with steel metal makes it easy to add extra square footage for more classrooms [Coleman], offices, gymnasiums, or assembly areas as the need arrises or the budget permits." Also on the web, a site talks about wind resistance, fire resistance, and water resistance. You can refer to these buildings as "tin cans" if you want to. They still are a viable alternative in a down economy. They are often half the price of regular construction. All I want is a discussion. A website you might refer to is: http://www.metalbuildingguide.com/metal_school_buildings.htm

Apple, I have appreciated your sincerity, but I must admit this is the first time I have ever heard about the plan to build 2 schools, tear down 2 schools, build 2 new schools....But have you ever looked around town to see what the average worker is making to finance all of what you are talking about? This is basically a fast-food economy. A fast-food economy and a town that is looking at ever increasing sewer taxes, plus the potential of a larger operating levy over the next few months, plus, not knowing what's going to happen with their next tax bill and their next utility bill. This town has a history of not paying its workers well, so the school district, as well as the public, may have to make due. I would ask to get new schools,the school district ought to get out in the community and relate to the people whom they are going to ask to make sacrifices. They have not done this. I will go along with you. I would like to see new modern schools. However, I would like to see a clean St. Joseph, a progressive looking St. Joseph, but I also want people to be able to pay their bills and meet their health needs. A vote for or against schools may be predicated on the person's ability or lack of it to pay for it.

Dillygent1 - I believe the district’s proposals have been well discussed in many of the blogs leading up to the vote. But, the district should have done a much better job of communicating this information to the entire public. This is also where it would have been important for the mayor and city council to be involved.

Yes, times are tough but there's always an excuse not to do something. Unfortunately, by not doing anything (at a minimum keeping the status quo) the community continues to feed into the problem. It's hard to attract well paying jobs when the community appears as though it will not invest in itself. Like it or not one of ways that businesses measure community investment is to look at the conditions of the schools. To continue the snowball effect, the youth and talent of the community leave in order to find those well paying jobs in other communities. Therefore, the talent pool is reduced, which further detracts businesses from coming.

By investing in the schools, well paying jobs are more likely to be attracted to St. Joe which means the talent pool stays, pay increases, and more companies come for the talent. Investing in schools does not guarantee success but conversely not investing in schools does put the community at a severe disadvantage when competing communities are investing.

Each cycle, positive or negative, tends to build upon itself.

Yep, Catch-22. If we do not invest in schools, business will not invest in St. Joseph. Simple.

Insideout, There is no way I can argue with anything you have said, because I agree with you. However, to take care of the problem, the movers and shakers of the community have to have a plan and a desire to raise the community up. This is not an original thought, but I'll say it anyway: When your largest employer and community developer seems to be a not-for-profit hospital, your community has a problem. There is not another employer, short of maybe the school district, that is a for-profit business, that can match the workforce of the hospital. Our industry seems to be fast food restaurants and other low paying jobs. As much as we would like the tax payers to show good faith and vote for this, many of our citizens are having financial trouble now. Do you wonder why so many contractors bid on the new building at Western? I am like you, also. I don't think the school district has made a real effort to become community involved to get their message across. For that matter it doesn't seem to me that they pay much attention to suggestions offered to them by the public.

Insideout, Another thing that I think the school district is lacking in, is that they seem to NOT have an ability to "read" public opinion. They seem to be lacking in the art of FRIENDLY persuasion. Surely there are enough school administrators in this town that at least one of them could be assigned the task of dealing with public relations.

Apple – you posted that having two grass roots organizations is counterproductive. The problem seems to be (judging from the posts here) that many wanted to be involved in the original “coalition” (using the word loosely) and were blatantly ignored. The only way their voices could be heard was to start a second group.

Perhaps there are many in St. Jo who are sick and tired of the same old people pulling the strings and ramming their elitist agendas down the average joe’s throat. I sat in on a few of the coalition meetings and it was very clear that there was a lack of transparency and a limited few calling the shots. I remember in one of the first meetings there were some very angry exchanges just because “the opposition” showed up and voiced their opinion. The town hall meetings were designed to give the appearance that every voice mattered. They were disingenuous. This certainly is not a coalition. They have no desire to build a consensus. They are simply developing a strategy to get the Board’s agenda passed.

Here is a radical thought. Perhaps the second group is the one you should get behind. Isn’t it possible that there just may be a solution that no one has thought of? Isn’t it still possible to get the “buy in” from the entire community on a plan that will move St. Jo schools forward? Isn’t it possible to find a compromise? There is still too big of a gap between the people who support the bond/issue and the people who don’t. And just remember that most of the people who didn’t vote for it aren’t against children as they were accused of being, but instead just didn’t agree with the fundamentals of the issues. This has not changed.

If you want the issues to be successful next time, you can not continue to cater to a limited segment of the population and cross your fingers that the voter turnout will be low enough that the limited number of registered voters that the district has managed to rally will be enough to push it through.

If you truly support what is best for the kids as you say you do, it is imperative to listen and address others concerns. You seem to take the my way or the highway approach. It is important to recognize that just because someone may have an opposing point of view, it doesn't make their viewpoint wrong, it just makes it different.

To Yougottabekiddingme, AMEN !!!

amen x's ten, kidder!!!!!

Apple - you say "Two schools are closed and no matter what that is a fact. What do you want to do now?" Why? Are you sure there are NO other options? I talked to a Neely parent and asked specifically if they were afraid to send their children to school there. She laughed at me as if the question was ludicrous and said no. I was recently in a much more progressive town than ours and all of their schools were in "old" buildings. Beautifully maintained and cared for. What would be the cost to rehab our old buildings? Has anyone checked? Would it be more cost effective to rehab the old buildings and build a new smaller school on the east side. How's that for an alternate plan? And I'm just shooting from the hip.

It seems to me the only people who aren't listening here are the school board, the administration and now, the "coalition" (I can't help but laugh when I call it that). The people have voiced their concerns and again, the concerns are being brushed aside as if they had no merit. Again, you are saying to the average jo that their concerns do not even deserved to be addressed, they do not merit a response.

And I am confused. Who was trying to take over the committee and how? When I was there, I only saw people expressing their (opposing) views. I didn't see anyone trying to usurp power from....who is in charge anyways???

Dillygent1 - I agree that the "mover and shakers" need a plan but this extends well beyond the SJSD. I find it appalling that neither the mayor nor a single city council member spoke out for or against the levy/bond. These are the people that are suppose to lead and be the front lines for the community but they had no opinion…simply amazing.

Heartland, maybe classified as not-for-profit but I think it's obvious there's some individuals in the upper ranks making serious money. Meanwhile, they only fuel the problem of low wages...while they may pay descent in comparison to other jobs in St. Joe, they rank very low in many areas for the industry. Again, further reducing the incentive for talented individuals to remain or permanently relocate to St. Joe. There’s much more to being a “good” business for the community besides the number of individuals you employee and Heartland lacks in almost all of the other categories.

Without a doubt there are several citizens with "true" financial problems and I feel for them because they are often the ones that do not receive the assistance they deserve. These are the law-abiding folks working two or three low paying jobs, trying to save every nickel, and provide for a family. However, the problem is that there's a much larger group of folks who have financial problems because their priorities are not where they should be. When a kid walks through the lunch line with designer clothes, Nikes, a new(er) car in the parking lot, and a cell phone in their hand but they get free or reduced lunch, then there's a problem. At that point, your financial problem is a self inflicted wound I have little sympathy.

It's all about priorities.

apple: i'm sure you have previously posted this somewhere, but i can't remember.

what are your ideas for moving the school district forward?

i understand you feel a new school would be better for joetown - how do you propose we get to that point?

what are your suggestions for rallying citizens to side with you in getting more $$ to the district? perhaps some of your ideas can be implemented or discussed at some of these grassroot organization meetings.

i'm sure readers of these postings would be more interested in your proposals to move forward rather than hearing time and again how the levy/bond issues failed and about the supposed ignorance of the average voting citizen was the reason why.

be a forward-thinking leader, man. positive encouragement accomplishes so much more.

Apple, The district told us in their "vision" that they need to close two schools due to the aging facilities and build two new schools. One at Carden Park and one in the northeast. They also state that they intend to close Hall and Noyes. These two buildings would remain in use. The board then goes on to talk about closing Hyde and converting Spring Garden back to an elementary school. So, to summarize, they hope to eventually close 5 schools and build three. There are many many in the community who are asking why tear down or close existing buildings just to build new ones. My question is simple. Has the district considered rehabbing some of these buildings instead of closing them? If so, what is the cost compared to building a new school? If it is cost effective, are there reasons that the school board is not considering this options?

You ask why would we throw all that money at an old building where the population is dropping so badly? Why aren't you hesitant to "throw" money at a new school in the same area if the population is dropping? What is the difference between the two options? Either way you slice it, the district (the taxpayers) are going to spend money on a school in that area. I think the taxpayers have a right to know if other options have been explored and if they haven't, why not?

These are some of the many valid questions that were asked the first go round and ignored.

Another point, there is nothing wrong with having several groups working towards the same goal which I believe to be the betterment of the SJSD. It probably just means that there will have to be some compromise to get something passed. I would tend to believe that the best solution will ultimately come from the different groups coming up with a compromise that everyone can support. This solution would have more credibility with the general voting public as well since there will not be the perception that there are only a few puppetmasters pulling all the strings.

It is not about people feeling like they have equal voice, but instead about giving them equal voice. What is wrong with that? Are some people more entitled to have an opinion than others? I would say that the members of the coalition (again laughing) feel this is the case since they have effectively shut everyone out who isn't of like mind.

you, a little late to the game here. Most if not all of your questions have been repeatedly asked and answered by the SJSD and folks on this forum. As to shutting some out, at some point you just have to agree to disagree.

kidder is hardly late to the conversation, just not active in the comments section ;0)

kidder is using a word which is foreign to the administration's mantra ...COMPROMISE. repeatedly the superintendent has rammed ahead and used her constant drum beat of following the VISION no matter what.

again, Build a New school where it is needed and appropriate. don't say that savings in the hall/neely area will outweigh the benefits of smaller schools. stop trying to hand the neighborhood a new larger school when for $10 million less ( at the very Least) the two heritage schools which are the RIGHT SIZE can be made completely new. inflicting the needs and desires of one area of town on another makes no sense. it is the same argument made by those on the belt vs. downtown smackdown. both are needed, both have merits, and trying to make one more viable just makes a divide where, for most, people, none exists.

not one person i talked to along the juneteenth parade route was happy with the "dying neighborhood" comments. that single assertion is the most flagrant insult to the population imaginable. this city is comprised of many neighborhoods, and the loyalty in those neighborhoods is legendary.

compromise is not surrender. it is common sense.

Let me see if I have got this straight 238. Are you saying that I somehow don’t have the right to ask questions because I have not been as prolific of a poster as some here? Hmmm, interesting strategy if your goal is gaining support for the levy/bond. I am only guessing, but it seems that a more effective strategy would be to address these questions. As far as I can tell these questions have only been answered by posters, not in any official capacity from a member of the administration. I could be wrong because admittedly, I haven’t read every post or every article on the subject but I have looked for the info on the district website. Please feel free to point me to the information if it is out there.

Your statement about just having to agree to disagree seems a little counterproductive as well. Isn’t that what the district tried the first time around? If I remember correctly, that didn’t seem to work out so well. The coalition (lol) reminds me of that old saying about putting lipstick on a pig.

For the record, I am all about progress in this community. I am also smart enough to know that if you want a different outcome than what you had the first time around, you better change your strategy. The strategy here should be compromise and consensus building. Maybe decisions that some think have already been decided need to be revisited. Apple seems to think that since the district has already reassigned the teachers in the closed schools, it is too late. Perhaps it could just be looked at as an opportunity to rehabilitate the old schools.

If it is important for the Neely and Webster neighborhoods to keep their historical buildings, why can’t this be considered? If for some reason this is impossible, then tell the voters why. If it is possible with additional tax money, then tell us that. Keeping the two schools open doesn’t mean you can’t still have a new school on the east side. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Apple thinks that new schools are better than old. There are a large number of people who think otherwise. I am not here to tell you one is better than the other. What I am saying is if there is any hope to move forward, you have got to find a solution the majority can live with and get behind.

One of the problems here is that the folks like Heritage want to rehab the old buildings that are functionally obsolete. It is like taking a Wright Flyer and trying to add a jet engine because you need a 787. Just doesn't work.

BTW Hall and Neely were built just a few years after the Wright Brothers first flight. Most of our schools were built prior to the sucessful use of jet engines on aircraft. Edison (~1930), Eugene Field (1932), Hall Elementary School (1909), Humboldt (1860), Hosea (1901), Hyde (~1930), Lindbergh (1931), Noyes (1939), Pershing (1925)

Problem is compromise is that you can't compromise for the sake of compromise. Many of the anti crowd absolutely want it their way. Frankly, I have noticed this trait in the historic preservation crowd. They did it and continue to do it in the Museum debate. Some folks you just can't compromise with.

there you go, again, 238, generalizing your individual perception on other individuals. might as well say that all people who live on lover's lane are lovers.

Anyone know when the courthouse was built? How about the capitol building in Jeff City?

Courthouse was 1880s I believe. Capitol was completed in 1917.

Most who use the courthouse will tell you it is functionally obsolete. Capitol has many of the same problems but is not landlocked like so many of our local schools. The state has addressed the issue by building new buildings, etc.

H, I wouldn't know about those on Lovers Lane being lovers. Don't live there.

I do think that St. Joseph is rather territorial. Some of the people don't want to cooperate in a venture when they can run their own. This has hurt the town. Insideout, I totally agree with your comments about Heartland, but it is still the largest employer. I also agree with any comment made that the city ought to try to help on school issues, but again, I feel the city is broken into territories, and I do not mean south, east, north and west. I mean areas of power. I sometimes say that the only time you see or hear from the district is when they want money. They must persuade people who do not have kids in the schools that the needs of the district is of total benefit to the community and each individual.

Alright 238, if you would continue to humor me. Can you tell me what is your definition of "functionally obsolete"? Is there any amount of money that can be spent to bring these buildings up to snuff and out of the category of "functionally obsolete"?

Which building? The Courthouse ... probably but more than what would be necssary to build a new one from scratch. You would build an additional structure, tied to the jail, provide parking for both employees and customers. This would probably entail either spanning Faraon or closing it (the security folks get all wound up).

From wikipedia - Functionally Obsolesence - Particular items may become functionally obsolete when they do not function in the manner that they did when they were created. This may be due to natural wear, or due to some intervening act. For example, if a new mobile phone technology is adopted, and there is no longer a provider who provides service based on the old technology, any mobile phone using that technology would be rendered obsolete due to the inability to access service.

From MDOT (Michigan) - Functionally Obsolete (FO) Status - Highway bridges classified as functionally obsolete are NOT structurally deficient, but their design is outdated. They may have lower load carrying capacity, narrower shoulders or less clearance underneath than bridges built to the current standard.

How many on this list have cell phones? I would say most. How many of those are bag phones? I would say none.

238, I was talking about the schools. But based on the information that you provided. Thank you BTW. In order for Neely, for example, to no longer be considered FO, it would have to function in the manner that they were created.

Now, you didn't answer this part of my question. What would it take to make Neely functional again? Is it possible and how much would it cost? It may not financially be feasible, who knows? It is certainly worth considering since it seems to be important to many registered voters.

I am posting a link to an article that shows what can happen when a community thinks outside of the box: http://www.preservationnation.org/resources/case-studies/historic-neighborhood-schools/boise-high-school.html

Apple, I see you have gone back the my way or the highway mentatility. Perhaps if you opened you mind just a little and did not assume that the plan put forth by the district was the only one that would work, you would see that there are other possible solutions.

You are right about one thing, if the only issue on the ballot was to spend millions just to keep Neely open, it would fail. If the bond also included the new school you keep promoting on the eastside, would you vote for it then? Do you see any room for compromise? Is there anything you would give up to get one new school instead of two? Assuming that the compromise plan still met the needs of the kids, which is what we all really care about - right?

Now, do you want to talk about the need for the SJSD to shut down to schools? I will start the dialogue. Let's say the reason the district gives for needing to close 2 schools is two-fold: 1. save money, costs less to operate 16 vs. 18; and 2. the population in the areas of Webster and Neely do not support those schools any longer. Does this cover it?

i actually live very near to the cluster of habitat homes built near the old sister's hospital site. i am absolutely happy with those homes. it pleases me to know that families can benefit from living in new homes while respecting the work and devotion which is given to the historic homes remaining in the neighborhood. in fact, the owners of those HFH homes often stop by for a chat and ask me about my garden, and praise the work we have done on our old relic.

many of them often express a new found respect for the history of this city from observing that old houses can be brought back to life. you assume wrong again in your "guess" apple. you assumed wrongly that i had taken public funds to restore this house, also.

Sad apple. I hope there aren't too many people out there as narrow minded as you. This type of mindset is exactly why the levy/bond failed the first time. You can continue to argue about how new schools don't cost that much, and how it won't affect everyone's property taxes much, but you will continue to miss the point. The bond/levy didn't fail because people were scared of taxes. It failed because as heritage pointed out, the district was inflicting the needs and desires of one part of town on another. This is what the coalition is doing. Nothing has changed. Same people pulling the strings, different puppets.

I also think you are wrong about no movement. People are fed up. I have talked to many of them. They are sick and tired of this "my way or the highway" attitude that you have demonstrated so well. I think nothing will pass until we can elect a new school board who will be open to compromise. It is then that we will see movement. You are only delaying the inevitable.

apple, in fact, the city is planning to purchase homes with stimulus money and rehabilitate them. this is a good thing, imo.

why were these funds made available? to preserve neighborhoods.

you absolutely know that i did not vote against the bond because the district was paying more attention to another area of town. i voted against an unsubstantiated plan to build two identical schools in two different neighborhoods with no regard for any scientific backing. as a matter of fact, when i presented the studies to dr. kosek (who is now the spearhead for the Task Force), she stated plainly that she was willing to blindly follow dr smith. so much for using that brilliant mind of hers to a broader view.

well, suffice to say i don't want kidder to have to wade through the novella of my postings!

saying that you are going to be jumped on for making a comment regarding a population's not being the sharpest tool in the shed is certainly not going to inoculate you. that is a completely unacceptable and insulting comment. if it ever comes out who you actually are, apple, i certainly hope that you are willing to accept the pillorying you so richly deserve.

i do know exactly what i am doing. protesting loudly against elitist comments like that, and against the "nanny" state the school board would have us all accept blindly.

a little while ago this city tried to close the downtown library with a similar argument..... that no one in the district there read anyway. is this a good way to get people to move to our fair city, because we are "so fair?"

this makes me sick to my stomach. enough.

All I can say about Apple's comment comparing a portion of our population to something in a tool shed is...you gotta be kidding me!!!!!????

heritage, again you demonstrate a lack of basic facts, the city does not own, operate or otherwise have any decision making authority over the St. Joseph Public Library. It is its own political subdivision.

The St. Joseph Public Library is the municipal library. It has its own tax levy. The City(City Council and Mayor) appoints its Board of Directors who are responsible for managing the affairs of the library.

Apple, I gotta say, I hope for the district's sake or the coalition's sake you are not affiliated with either as your views and statements will be the most damaging thing to happen to either of them.

Apple, you have repeatedly stated that a privately funded school can not be compared to the SJSD. Your comment about even Catholics being able to figure it out was insulting and rude. Catholic education is privately funded. If there aren't enough children in a school it closes. That is also true if parents don't like the way their kids are being educated. If a school fails to meet standards, they close because people stop going there. It's a pretty simple system. Lower enrollment isn't because of the children in the neighborhood. Children in catholic school are driven from all areas of town. The lower enrollment is a direct result of the quality of education being received and the cost. The schools are continually held accountable and it seems to work just fine.

The issue wasn't how much it was costing individual tax payers. It was a plan that was proposed and voted on. The plan was rejected. Period. Just because something doesn't cost much doesn't mean people agree with it.

I won't even touch your tool shed comments. I only hope that you will rethink your statements later and realize their impact. Comments like that are the number one reason there is no progress in St. Joe.

Apple, I have accused you of being a district "homer". Two things you ought to know about public opinion. If you want me to vote for your issue, you had better well treat me a little better than telling me I am "not the sharpest tool in the shed". If not, your chances of getting my support would be zero to none. The fact that I vote is a reason for you to try to sway me. I wonder, has that been the district approach? I found it interesting that an article in today's paper told of a new hiring for a new administrative position. Did the woman's new job mean still another hire is necessary to replace her in her original job? If I were a district employee who didn't have in enough years until retirement but is riffed out, I would not be too big of a fan of the district now. The only problem I have is that I feel your attitude is precisely why both school district issues were defeated.

St. Joe Christian building a new school has nothing to do with the issue at hand here. St. Joe Christian is privately funded. St. Joe Christian was given the money to build a new school. No one went to the district and gave the money. The district came to the public and said the money was needed. There is no comparing the two issues.

So many words, so little substance. Freud would have a field day.:D

Paranoia. hmm.

Apple, the only one around here stomping their feet is you. The rest of us are just enjoying the show. ; )

Why apple? oh, nevermind, I already know. The my way or the highway mentality.

But the rest of us are "morons" and "idiots."

I think "nanny state" about sums it up. Again, apple, education is a wonderful thing.

Instead of sitting there waiting to pounce on every comment on this post, you might try broadening your horizons by looking it up--the web is a wonderful resource.

Too bad you are so focused on this one page of comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the orignal post to stop and think about what a nanny and does with its charges. You might be able to figure out it out on your own.

Ap, Have you ever thought about moving to Maryville, Savannah, or North Kansas City, where they have some of those wonderful new schools you like? I'm sure with your progresssive, outspoken, excessively honest attitude, that you would be a big hit. I can see those school districts just chomping at the bit to hear every bit of all that wonderful wisdom you have to impart. Just think, you wouldn't have to mess with any tools in any sheds any more. And you wouldn't have or worry about people wanting to keep their neighborhood schools open, because you wouldn't know where any of the old schools were anyway. I think with your thoughtful insight, any school district would be more than happy to have you as its spokes person. Good luck and Bon Voyage :) PS: Stay in touch.

10 "against " 12 "for" .... mckinley, washington and holdenreid voted against. sounds like the neighborhood is awakening........ not bad for a bunch of rusty old tools.

Sorry for this post but I couldn't resist any longer...doesn't it seem fitting that St. Joe was in the dark yesterday?

I think just about any student in the SJSD would be embarrassed to see the elders of the community fighting like kids in a school yard.

When EVERYONE grows up and begins to act like adults, then maybe the schools, sewers, low wages, downtown, and everything else in between will improve.

no one here is buying your wholesale condemnation of the neely area. low functioning? dysfunctional? gmab.

your apology is on a par with the other you have made. shearin-esque.

wow.... read your post of 6/19 at 1:14 AM

"inside - you are correct, I apologize for my behavior this post. I got carried away and got drawn into this childish fight. "

It's like a bad train wreck. No wait, a scab.

<wrings her hands in despair. which is it which is it>

blah blah blah blah.... so tired of hearing about this.

Apple or Sun, on the Alonzo Weston article, the levy may find itself back on the ballot comment section, there is a reference by a supposed school district employee that maintains that the district lost $100,000 and didn't want it to get out. Do you know anything about that?

Sad to say, I have talked to numerous people related to the school district and they have said as much as that for years. I thought 100,000 dollars is a lot of money to be out there floating some place in this economy. Any school issue that passes will require good stewardship on the part of the district.

Is good stewardship just a matter of hoarding money, or is it using it carefully. What did the school district go without to get the 32 million?

On the contrary. If the district is to pass ANYTHING, they must be prepared to answer any and all questions. New schools do need to be built. The budget must be maintained, but I'm not sure you're listening to the people who are going to participate in this election. I think you are only listening to the people in your group, which is your option. I have made comments to you in the past about knowing your weaknesses, playing on your strengths, having a good strategic plan. This should be the hallmark of what these committees should be doing. I make my community relations comments from what I read in these sections. I don't know how you can't see that the district has a community relations problem when you read comments from these types of articles, and comments in the "slime line". I am not the one who called for the heads of the superintendent and one of her assistants. That was in this column. Putting your head in the sand and not talking to people about the necessity of passing this levy (not just your group, and who may not agree with you) will get you nowhere. Again, read all of the comments of this article. They don't sound too good. Anyone expressing an oposing view of the district is attacked. The people who are being attacked are also the same people who will be asked to vote for what the district wants. As an extra, calling potential voters "not the sharpest tools in the shed," is not going to earn you any points in that district. My guess is that you lost some points for the district on that one.

For starters, if Neely did not close because of mold, why did it close? Does the school district close schools because of low test scores? Why did you decide to close schools 5 years after you built additions on it and the other schools? If numbers were the issue, why didn't you see this 5 years ago when you built on to Neely and other schools? Did you do your best not to move students around or did you just do it in a fit of anger to create hysteria in hopes of manipulating people toward the administration's view? Actually, these are questions that should be very, if not almost insultingly easily, answered. But the district has no real public relations program to address anything. They don't have the sufficient good will of the people, whom they are going to ask to sacrifice their own needs for the will of the administration.

Apple, First place, the definition of a "professional," is one who gets paid to do a job. Secondly, you missed the point of my comment. As I listen to other comments, it sounds like the school district didn't do a very good job of getting things across. Thirdly,here is an example: Within 5 years I will have completed building a rocket ship to go to the moon. Apple, you can ride for $50,000. Does that mean I have a viable, long range plan? It is a fact that I know nothing about building a rocket ship and even less about aeronautics. If my spouce PAYS me $5 for screwing up the plans, do I qualify as a professional? According to the definition of a professional, I am. After all, I'm getting paid. These professionals you speak of, have evidently not learned the art and politics of persuasion.

If the previous 39 years had no leadership, how did they build a fund of 32 million dollars? On her first big attempt to add to that fund, Mrs. Smith "muffed" it. To relate to you, it was in the bottom of the 9th. The bases were loaded. She was down by one run. There were two outs. She had a full count and... she struck out. I disagree with your comment that her job is not to socialize. If her total job is to run the academics of the school district, why do they have all those administrators, supervisors,principals, assistant principals, coordinators, academic coaches, blah, blah, blah, underneath her? Mrs. Smith is the face of the school district and she must be able to sell her plan to the public--not sit behind closed doors and let others do that hard, persuasive work. By the way, I have hired school district employees over the summer. They do a good job. I would recommend them any day. They are trained and conscientious. Still think you're a homie. :)

Hi Ap. It's me. First off, who strategized the election 5 years ago, to set up this multi-million dollar reserve? It was not your Dr. Smith. It was the previous administration. I guess I have to ask you, that if that 63 cent [not .63 cent] that you refered to, was really necessary, why would the reserve be so large? In regard to indebtedness, some CEO's believe that indebtedness is the only time progress is being made, because people work hard to get out of debt. This encourages growth. There was a church in town, whose pastor said he would stay at his church only as long as they had indebtedness, because that meant they were expanding. When the average taxpayer, faced with possible unemployment, sees a public entity with a 32 million dollar reserve, they wonder why said entity needs the money. Again, I would ask you, what corners were cut to get that large of a reserve? What kind of reserve are they shooting for anyway? 64 million? Relating to your "idiot" comment, remember, as they say on the streets, "It takes one to know one."

Does anyone know where to find the 2008-09 Board of Education minutes? The newest minutes, listed on the school district website, are for Oct 13, 2008. Did they quit displaying minutes in October or did they remove newer minutes? I, for one, would like to see them displayed on the site, where I can refer back to them. Anybody know anything?

Ap, my ol' bud, and ex-playground buddy, I have a couple of questions for you? Why, in all of your posts that I have read since I have been posting, have you never mentioned the young people, er, "kiddos" in administration speak, that this is really all about? In my time reading these comments, it seems that the only thing that you are positive about is "Doctrine" Smith, the levy without sunset, and new buildings. You also have seldom referred to caring parents in a positive light, who I feel that you and school officials have recently alienated. My second question is why are you so into the idea of new buildings when you never mention safety and health issues relating to the young people? This should be of paramount interest to the school district and parents. If you say that mold issues do not exist, you have not been listening to many of "Doctrine" Smith's presentations. You basically only refer to the wonderful "Doctrine" Smith and how lousy you think this town is.

Ap, ol' Buddy, Debate seems to be your bye-word. I prefer decent discussion. Education is the people business. It is not buildings and levies. It is to train young people to participate successfully in society. I have told you before that you have some good comments,but then you go after a "win" and set out on attack mode. Yes, I have mocked you. Some of your posts have deserved it. I have given you what you have given to other people. Not fun, is it? You say the issues are the levy with sunset, and the buildings. The longer I go and read these posts, and network around town, I have come to think the issue is also the people who are running this district--both the board and the administration. Again, if you don't comprehend what I am trying to say, any discussion or debate with you will be futile. You have never understood that I am not after a win. You are. I am after fairness for the families that are involved in our schools and community.

We can call Melody Smith RUDE Dr Melody Smith because that fits her very well and I would not say that is very professional, and this goes for her staff as well.As for closing schools this is not a good idea anyway you look at it till you have a plan to replace them and build them then move those children into the new school.I am sure there is money out there either thru the state or federal goverment to help with the cost associated with building these new schools.I would pose the same qestion as Mr Reese did why not make Blair a school again for the Hall and Neely students to take all of this moving around at all of the other schools and keep Webster open? Seems as if this is a fesable solution to the main problem, they are spendng money on maintenance on Blair anyway at this point and reopening Webster because it is a building in good shape and it still would allow the district to closed Neely and keep those children together and Hall as well and then they would have got rid of both buildings that are in this bad shape they are saying. In all there are a lot of ideas out in the public that make some sort of sence and the district could have acted differently.

Apple, do you remember when I mentioned in one of the posts that if the school district employees, numbering around 1,000,and the parents, since there are around 11,500 young people in the school district, there are at least as many or more parents, step-parents, and grandparents--who knows how many people are in this group, how come only around 5,000 people voted? It would be interesting to know the demographics of who voted and who did not vote. It would be even more interesting to know how and why they voted.

Do you know the break-down on this, Apple?

Thanks, Apple.