StJoeMoe says...

Yes, Jesus did rise on the third day.

And at this point in time, there is no way that anywone could truly prove that he did not, beyond any shadow of doubt.

But, we will hear more and more of that type of talk, yes, yes we will.

It is to be expected, and hopefully you are prepared.

You do not want to believe that Jesus did not rise from the dead, that he is just a story, well -

I believe he did, and there is not anyone that can convince me otherwise.

Thank you

March 19, 2009 at 10:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Rthirty2 says...

Why have a debate on something that can neither be proved nor disproved? Religion is faith-based, period. There is nothing to debate if you have faith and believe. If you don't believe then I feel sorry for you.

March 19, 2009 at 10:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

ricky says...

In response to the comment posted by rthirty2. You said it so very true. I too feel so sorry for anyone who have no faith. To me there is no point in having none except to make ones life here a pretty rotten one. I know that the faith I have in him has brought me through many times of troubles and pain .

March 19, 2009 at 11:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hookiebob says...

One more "science" vs God debate here? There is certainly nothing wrong with science, and there is nothing wrong with endeavoring to learn about our surroundings and human circumstance, however there is something wrong with being so dead on arrogant not to recognize how overwhelming the evidence is that there is a God and that man's "wonderful" knowledge base is an absolute joke compared to what man does not know scientifically (or historically).

If God really is God, he would not allow man a simplistic scientific means to prove whether or not Jesus was resurrected - If he is God (and he is), he would have us believe and have faith in that magnificent possibility, and then he might grant us knowledge at some later point after a test of faith which he requires of us. God knows all "science" of which man comprehends only a minuscule particle. To think otherwise, or to postulate alternatives using our comparatively sub-caveman scientific logic is arrogance that is not even worthy of acknowledgment.

March 19, 2009 at 12:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Thecitizen says...

Yea well all you people should believe in Santa Clause too then. I believe in the fact that humans need something to believe in. I don't put faith in a religion that has wiped out hundreds of civiliztions. Indians, South American Indians, Africans, Asians, have all been persecuted in the name of Religion..... The sooner we forget about Christianity and other persecution based religions the better. Personally I believe in being a good person. Doing to others how you would treat yourself is a true statement. The Bible is a great work of mostly fiction. I believe it can be studied and learned from but cannot be taken literally. I would say the closest religion based on fact would be Buddism. I can understand why a person who has been taught to believe will have unshaken faith. To tell a lifelong believer that their beliefs are not true would freak them out and they cannot fathom any other way of thinking. I don't think these people are wrong. They are just misinformed and are not capable of seeing the big picture. We are in control of our own futures. If the human race were to end today the universe would not even notice. Humans just cant grasp the fact that we are small and not that important in the grand scheme of things. Just a thought.....The Citizen

March 19, 2009 at 4:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

davehuntsman says...

Folks -

Christianity - unlike some other religions - is a historical religion. It says that certain people really existed, that they really said certain things, and that certain things really did happen. If we find out that none of that is true (for example). then the religion really is false. That's why saying 'you can't argue with faith' is simply not true.

Why are you atheists with respect to the god Zeus? To Thor? I know they didn't exist because the things in real life attributed to them we now know are false. Thunderbolts are not hurled by Zeus; Apollo doesn't pull the sun across the sky; thunder is not caused by Thor's hammer.

Those who make incredible claims - such as, that someone rose from the dead and flew into the sky later (they don't say to which galaxy)- have a lot to prove. They haven't. In fact, as real historians - which Lane is not - have dug into things, they have been able to show how much -if not a majority - of the 'New Testament' are either wrong; were written by people who don't even know what Galilee looks like; some parts are truly forged; etc.

As world mythologies expert Joseph Campbell said just before he died (his last lectures are now on DVD/Netflix, by the way) , there's some reason to believe that a human Jesus really was arrested during the time of Pontius Pilate and really was executed - but beyond that, the entire Christ cult was built up over the following centuries and layered over that character. The 'Christianity' of today is not the Christianity of Jesus of Galilee; but more that of Paul and subsequent folks.

Is the 'debate' available on line anywhere for viewing?

Dave

March 19, 2009 at 8:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

StJoeMoe says...

I believe in the spirit of Santa Clause.

:-D

March 20, 2009 at 12:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

StJoeMoe says...

Thecitizen - you seem to generalize all Christianity and that simple conclusion on your part invalidated your credibility with me instantly.
And that's OK, I will pray for you to someday be able to better grasp the big picture better.
We have been given the free will to do as we please, and yes, we are all in control of our actions - and consequences, good and bad.
Anyway, we'll all find out someday who it right and who is wrong.
I'll still love you all anyway.

March 20, 2009 at 12:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Vissarion says...

I understand very well why the resurrection is so doggedly defended by Christians: without it (and without the miracles) Jesus was just a guy with strong opinions who got nailed to a tree.
So, in order for the story to work, and for us lowly peasants to start oohing and aahing, he has to make an appearance after death.
One wonders, however, what happened to Him and His body afterwards. Did he, al-la Mohammed, bodily rise into heaven, which would imply that he is currently on his way to Alpha Centauri or some other yet undiscovered physical location in the universe, or did he somehow transposition Himself to some other 'dimension' from which he now (no doubt with dismay) observes us? If the latter is true then why did he need to do the resurrection thing?
He could have just opted to go straight to the aforementioned dimension and start tallying up our sins.

My hunch is that it is all about the ooh and aah factor, but then again, what do I know? I stalk this lamentable sphere not filled with the Holy Spirit or any other stuffing.

March 20, 2009 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

charlesw says...

In terms of logical argumentation and evidence, I have to admit that Dr. Craig won this debate -- which is really too bad because I had high expectations for Dr. Carrier.

Dr. Carrier *talked* a lot about evidence, but he never actually seemed to provide any. Sure, one hypothesis is that hundreds of people had a sudden mass hallucination (with no drugs, for some reason). Fine, but what's the EVIDENCE for this, Dr. Carrier? He also kept changing the subject to the "general reliability" of the gospels. Hello? The debate was focused on the resurrection question. Even if the gospels are unreliable on other details, nothing much of interest follows from that with respect to the resurrection. Many historical documents are unreliable on the edges, but pretty accurate at their core. Very frustrating that Carrier kept doing this.

Dr. Craig from what I could tell provided at least three lines of evidence for his hypothesis of resurrection. I think he needs to go up against a seasoned debater and historian, not someone fresh out of grad school who is part of amateur atheist internet clubs like the "rational response squad" (Carrier). This debate was one-sided in Craig's favor. I bet if Dr. Craig debated someone like Hector Avalos, it be much more challenging.

March 20, 2009 at 11:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Vissarion says...

Charlesw wrote...'In terms of logical argumentation and evidence, I have to admit that Dr. Craig won this debate -- which is really too bad because I had high expectations for Dr. Carrier.'

You seem to have a peculiar notion of the word 'evidence'.

There are no extra-biblical accounts of the resurrection so we are considering as 'evidence' the utterances of people who didn't know a damn thing about our world and who penned a book which cites itself as its own authority.

I feel misplaced, really, having to share this planet with confused bipedal primates who will, with a straight face, try to defend this blatant nonsense, for which not a thread of evidence exists.

March 20, 2009 at 12:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

thenfixit says...

The old book read that (god) you shall worship no other than I. But then you did. Hummmmm. right or wrong true or false faith or no faith. Who knows? christian faith says they are right so they must be. After all they have the big churches book stores and coffee shops. Cool lets go networking I get it now"MONEY" IS RIGHT "MONEY".

March 20, 2009 at 5:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

pinger says...

Hey Vissarion,

People's own letters and personally-penned documents are used by the courts all the time, both in support of and against those people. So there is nothing wrong with using the Bible as evidence (all the more so as it has more authenticity than any other ancient text that we have, and much of the New Testaments attesting to Jesus were written within 25 to 35 years after the events those books say happened). Those books are historical documents, and there are many quotes and excerpts surviving from the ancient world from those books, which tells us that they were not revised at some later point.

I happen to believe that Jesus did rise from the dead, if only because of this: His disciples ran like rabbits the night Jesus was arrested. Peter himself denied even knowing Jesus when questioned. Roman soldiers, personally acquainted with hand-to-hand-combat and who certainly knew what death looked like, said that Jesus was dead before Jesus was taken down from the cross. Jesus's tomb was sealed to prevent the disciples taking away the body (breaking that seal meant a death-penalty) and a guard posted. After the Resurrection was said to have happened, Thomas (doubting Thomas) said he'd only believe that Jesus came back from the dead if he could actually feel Jesus. Jesus appeared, Thomas felt His wounds and Thomas believed. After the Resurrection the remaining disciples went throughout the ancient world telling people about Jesus (spreading the Gospel); all were persecuted and tortured for their testimony, and all but John were executed for it. If Jesus did not come back from the dead, why did the disciples do this? What "in it for them"? Would eleven disciples, many with families, face certain persecution and even death all for a lie? It strains credulity to think that the Resurrection did not happen. And since the Resurrection did happen, Jesus must be Who He said He was.

Bear in mind that we have no documents saying that the diciples ever recanted or said any of this was made up.

Bear in mind too that the post-death appearances of Jesus could not have been mass hallucinations. The appearances happened over a period of time, to different people in different circumstances and in different emotional states (remember, Thomas doubted). People held conversations with the resurrected Jesus. That does not happen with hallucinations.

March 21, 2009 at 7:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

XSceptic says...

I have a challenge for those of you who defend the stance that faith must be blind in order to believe. And I have a challenge for the educated that believe that the idea of a risen from the dead human being is preposterous.

Every one of us was challenged by a simple quote, that is, "When you seek me, you will find me." There are no short-cuts to reach the end result. You can't use a book, you can't use a microscope, a list of shingles on a wall won't help. It's done by educated folk, it's done by those who never finished 6th grade. It's done by prosperous people as well as poor. It's done by white, black, red and yellow people. It's done by factory workers and even scientists. Actually, there are even a few theologians that have done it as well as those who have spent their lives declaring the non-existence of God.

The ironic thing here is that even though these examples find the truth by their searching, they can no more convince those who have no desire to know for themselves.

I guess I will put it this way. Imagine I came to you and you told me about this fabulous food you discovered. It was grown on trees in Florida, was orange in color and was wonderfully sweet. You called it an orange. I came from a country such as Greenland, maybe Alaska or Siberia. Can you descibe to me what an orange tastes like. Can you describe it so well that I can walk away "educated and convinced" what an orange tastes like without ever have partaken of this fruit? Can I ever be satisfied with your description to the point that I would walk away "knowing" what it tastes like? We ALL know the answer, and so it is with an experience with a living God. It is only something the desperate to know will find out. "Seek and you will find" also means "Don't seek and you will know exactly what you know now".

March 21, 2009 at 9:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hitemp says...

The reason the term "generally reliable" was tossed around is because that is one cornerstone that historians and theologians alike use to help establish the authenticity and integrity of ancient documents. Note, it not the ONLY one, but just one of the criteria. What questioning the "general reliability" of the Bible or any of its books does, in professional academic circles, is to cut out one leg of the table, so to speak, such that the argument (that it is true) falls to the ground.

As noted by previous commenters, there is much to support the idea of the ressurection being factual. The Roman guards at the tomb; the witnesses to the actual death; the peculiar and radical change in the demeanor of the Apostles after the death, from confused, scared followers to determined eyewitnesses with purpose.

But examining this event by itself can never paint the whole picture, any more than examining the fingernail portion of Michaelangelo's "Creation" would tell you much about the artist's style. Consider, for example, that there are some 58 accurate predictions of Christ's birth, down to the city he would be born in. For all 58 of those predictions to be coincidence, meaning they were meant to describe the coming of God but didn't, only coincidentally described a normal man's birth (if the ressurection is a sham), the odds are several trillion times what science itself would deem "impossible."

What about the healings of the sick? The man with the deformed hand who was restored to perfect right in front of a circle of skeptical clerics? This would make quite a list to put them all here. Walking on water, calming storms, etc.

Finally, if Jesus died and remained in the tomb, why wouldn't the Jewish authorities of the day - the ones who placed that Roman guard - simply trot out his corpse and reduce the Apostle's credibility to zero right on the spot? That WAS their purpose for the guard in the first place.

How do you explain and ordinary man being able to predict the future as Jesus did? How do you explain his ability to read the heart of people as is recorded in the gospels? Why could even the most knowledgeable and experienced Jewish religious authorities ever use academica and reason to show Jesus was incorrect? Certainly if that happened it would be recorded all over Jewish manuscripts that contain tons of minutia like how much grain is a fair measure.

Taken all together, there is no other explanation that fits all the available data. Why is that even in modern days there are people who experience miraculous cures that modern medicine absolutely cannot explain, yet there are no such claim from Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, or any other non-Christian major religion? What solution best answers that question?

March 21, 2009 at 10:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Bill_Smith says...

To expand on what Pinger said, the circumstantial evidence for the resurrection is overwhelming. Many people believe that circumstantial evidence is very weak, but a lawyer will tell you it is very, very strong, because it is just known facts, the circumstances, the smoking gun, speaking, and not faulty memories, or biases.

The "guard" that Pinger speaks of was a Roman Guard. That doesn't mean one guy with a spear who was a Roman. It was a special group of twelve Roman soldiers tasked with guarding the sealed tomb. They were on duty 24/7. They never left the thing they were guarding. They formed a perimeter of four armed, standing men in a semicircle. Four other men were sleeping next to their weapons within the semicircle. The other four were awake, also within the semicircle. You did not want to mess with these guys, as was well-known in those times. They had taken an oath, you see, to defend their charge to the death.

And, if one of these guard soldiers ran away, and was captured, he was killed by his fellow guards in a most unpleasant manner. That was the rule.

Well, on that day, something happened that was so powerful, so terrifying, so something that it caused ALL TWELVE Roman Guards to flee their posts. They ran away knowing the penalty. And, there is no record -- and there would have been -- of these men ever being punished in any way. They got a pass.

The Disciples were, frankly, a pretty sorry bunch. They ditched Jesus, and ran and hid. Even Peter, the Rock, denied even KNOWING Jesus, three times.

BUT.

AFTER the Resurrection, these same cowards became fearless lions in proclaiming the Resurrection. Every, or almost every -- I forget -- one of them died horrible, hideous, excruciating torture-deaths refusing to deny the Resurrection. Non-biblical sources attest to this. Think about that.

Did the Disciples have faith? Absolutely. Was their faith based on...faith? NO! It was based on facts. Things they had seen, and experienced. You can get other people to die for a lie, as we see too often these days, but to willingly die horribly for something you know is a lie?

You don't want to believe in God? Fine. Don't. But if you do believe in God who created the universe, what is the big deal about a resurrection? Why do you need to confine God to what you, yourself can do, or understand?

March 21, 2009 at 11:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

1supersnooper says...

The name Barabbas literally means "Adam" Jesus came to die for the sin (singular) not sins of this world. That sin was Adam's sin. Rom. 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: That one man was Adam and the day Barabbas was released It was Adam and his sin that was released as Jesus freed all of us from the one man Adam's sin. Jesus arose after being our burnt sacrifice and if you do not believe that you will die in your sins and go to hell.

March 21, 2009 at 1:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

airborneman says...

I look for facts to support a case. We have oral testimony and we have the shroud of turin. A DVD was producted about 9 years ago called "Jesus and The Shroud of Turin". A group of top notch scientists looked at the shroud. The only reasonable conclusion from their findings for me is that the shroud of turin was Jesus Christ burial cloth. If any
reasonably thinking rational person watches this DVD they will come away, I believe, with the same conclusion. View it for yourself and see. Remember, the evidence presented are hard scientific facts, not someone's opinion.

George R. Kadlec

March 21, 2009 at 1:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

orangeman says...

The Bible tells us that nobody has an excuse for not believing in God.

"They know the truth about God because God has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see His invisible qualities - His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God." - Romans 1:19,20

Those who say they don't believe in God either aren't aware of what God says regarding belief and non-belief or else they choose to deny the truth because they don't want it to change their lives. But whether somebody believes or not, it is not going to change the fact that God does exist.

I would encourage anyone who really DOES want to find out more about God BEFORE they die; to seek out a Pastor in their area before it's too late. Once we pass into eternity to wherever it is we will each go - depending on whether we listened to these words or not - it will be too late. Would you rather gamble and say there is no God and that Jesus didn't die on the cross for our sins and spend eternity in hell or would you prefer to find out more before you make that kind of a decision and choose God instead and spend eternity in paradise - heaven. It is not wise to listen to the foolishness of this world. The foolish say there is no God.

In closing, before you make a decision against God - stand outside on a starlit night and look up and around you in quietness. Just take a few minutes and look at the stars and moon and even the trees and mountains and hills around you. The earth is an environment that God created for His creation - Man - to enjoy. If you really do what I'm suggesting here, then the scriptures at the top of this post should really come alive for you.

Unfortunately, we have lost touch with God and that measure of faith that He has given each of us is no longer apparent in our lives. It is still there but it has no effect in our lives.

So whether people choose to accept or reject these words I'm sharing with you, I hope and pray that God will work in all of our hearts and help us to see the truth in these last days before it's too late. God bless you all.

March 21, 2009 at 2:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

davidsonofjames says...

I too believe Jesus died and was raised from the dead. Far too often eyewitnesses differ on the exact details of events witnessed today. Why is it surprising that people of today faced with the testimonies of eyewinesses from 2000 years ago would fail to believe? The real question to be asked is, can the Bible be relied on for factual accounts? The resounding answer is YES! Events denied to have happened at all are being proven to happen exactly as the writers recorded them. I pray for those who fail to believe now for shortly there will be no living witnesses of what Jesus has done in the lives of the people He continues to touch and change. Come quickly!

March 21, 2009 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

rhmski says...

Jesus was a fictional character like Captain Kirk, Spock, Paul Bunyan, the three bears, Little Red Riding Hood, etc. Makes a great story and gives people something to believe in, if you believe MORE POWER TO YOU and if you don't MORE POWER TO YOU.
I believe more in the Easter Bunny than a dead guy rising from the dead!

HAPPY EASTER

March 21, 2009 at 2:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Lhorne says...

Not too long ago, I was just as unbelieving as those that mock the faith now...but I did my own research and came to the same conclusion. That Christ is God, and He walked the face of this earth. He was born of a virgin, that was prophesized more than 700 years before His birth. He lived a perfect and sinless life and died a vicarious death upon a cruel cross for the entire world. The point that makes it all true is, the tomb is empty. He rose on the third day and is alive in Heaven, waiting on us all that believe and trust Him. We are not called to a blind faith. There is more than ample evidence out there to prove that Christ walked this earth. We have more that 500 prophesies that have come true just like they were written in the bible. It is pride that stops us from believing. Because if God does exist, then I am held accountable to a higher being than myself. We are not God. How can you explain that the universe just created itself, and life just happened, and in so many forms from nothing. It took a creator to form it, and to breathe life into His creation. The creation is never mightier than the Creator. We are called to ask, and He will show us the way. Jesus isn't just any way to Heaven, He is the Only Way. He told His disciples, that "I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life, no one comes to the Father except by me." Now either Jesus was a liar, or insane, or He was who He said He was. He does not push Himself on anyone, He just wants you to trust Him with your life, and your eternity. That is all. It is not by works that we are saved, lest any man should boast, but through the Precious Blood of Christ our Lord. Do you want to stand before a Just and Holy God one day and tell Him you didn't believe that He existed? I don't. I know He exists and He lives today and one day I will live with Him for all eternity. One day the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords will welcome me with open arms and say, "well done, my good and faithful servant." That is what I look forward to each and every day. This world is not my home, I am merely passing through. You too can have that assurance. All you need to do is put pride aside and ask Him to be your Lord and Savior. It is that simple. It is not religion that He wants. When He came, He did away with religion and set up a relationship with Him. Everything He did while He walked the face of this earth pointed to a relationship. He hated religion then, and He still does, because that leads to a works based faith. We cannot work our way into Heaven. He gave us the free gift by shedding His Blood for the world. If you want to know Him, all you need to do is ask. He will reveal Himself to you. Just ask Him. I pray that anyone that reads this, will accept Him.

March 21, 2009 at 3:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

orangeman says...

"They know the truth about God because God has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see His invisible qualities - His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God." - Romans 1:19,20

Yes - I'm starting this post as I did my previous post. The reason being, that unless we can see the OBVIOUS things that are proof of God's existence, as mentioned in this scripture, then we won't be able to see anything else. God knows it is difficult for His creation - Man - to believe in someone they can't physically see and that is why He provided us with the evidence that He does exist in His creation of the universe and everything around us. The solar system is called a "system" because it is in perfect balance. It is not a random thing. It is a "system". If you take a handful of pennies and throw them in the air then what will happen. Will they land to form a picture or a word? More than likey, not. But rather, they will probably spread all over the floor and make a big mess. So it is with all that rock floating in space. What are the chances of some rocks suddenly stopping in their flight paths from a big bang or explosion in space - which is the basis of belief for the non-creation believing scientists - and forming a perfect system capable of supporting life - with the sun as it's power source. And what are the chances of these rocks - on their own - orbiting around each other in perfect harmony so as not to bump into each other. And what are the chances of the sun and the moon appearing exactly opposite each other to give us day and night. And isn't it interesting that both the sun and moon provide us with light. How clever God is to provide us with light even at night by having light from the sun reflect off of the moon. And what a good God we have to allow us to see the wonders of the universe by reflecting the light of the sun off of the stars so that they can be seen when we look up.

I could go on and on but in the interest of time let me leave you with this. I hope that it speaks to everybody and helps them to believe that God really does exist and that His Word - the Bible - is true.

http://www.raptureforums.com/BiblePro...

I pray that God would open eyes and hearts and believe that God does exist and that He does love you. He sent His Son Jesus to die for us to prove that.

God bless

March 22, 2009 at 8:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Cato says...

I too believe in the risen Christ, based on faith, rationale, and personal experience.
He has healed me, forgiven me, redeemed me, changed me, instructed me, answered my prayers, and opened my eyes to his glory.
**
What a blessing it has been to read many of the posts on this page proffered by my fellow believers.
Thank you!

March 25, 2009 at 12:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )