Monday, November 30, 2009
A matter of money or morals?
President Thomas Jefferson proposed that the federal government purchase and free all of the slaves in the United States. He hoped they could be resettled in another land. President James Monroe revived the idea, and a few slaves were given land in Africa (hence the name Monrovia for the place where the newly freed slaves were settled). But there was not nearly enough money or political will to do more than a token gesture.
President Lincoln wanted to accomplish a similar plan with the slaves in Washington, D.C. In each instance, the cost seemed much too high and many objected to government interference in the institution of slavery. Money and policy were more important than moral and ethical considerations.
Slavery was eventually eliminated, at much greater cost, of course. The economy of southern states was ruined. The cost in dollars is beyond calculation, really. Nearly 215,000 died in battle, and perhaps that many again in other deaths related to the war.
That cost makes Mr. Jefferson's and Mr. Monroe's ideas seem economical as well as highly ethical.
Now, our Congress, with the public weighing in, is debating the issue of health care. Most accounts I read want to make the debate a matter of money and a matter of government involvement in health care. Opponents of current proposals do not dispute that 30 million American citizens are without health insurance and, therefore, without the care they need. Nor do they dispute the assertion by the medical community that something like 45,000 individuals die each year because they did not have health insurance. That is, by the way, 15 times the number of persons who died in the attacks on the World Trade Center.
Not so long ago, there was a political party that claimed the right to rule because it was the party of values and moral standards. That party opposed abortion and gay marriage on moral grounds, and promoted something called "family values."
I wish we could hear again the cry of "values, morals and ethics" when talking about the right thing to do for our neighbors and friends and family members who suffer when medical help is at hand and cannot pay for that help.
And I wonder how future generations will look upon our dollar calculus and our ideas about no government interference when they add up the cost of our unwillingness to find a way to provide basic health care to all of our citizens.
I urge the Congress in both chambers to find the moral backbone to pass a health care reform bill.
Thomas Russell, St. Joseph
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usedtobe says...
Rev.Russel finally frames the health care issue. The provision of basic health care is a moral issue. Basic health care is a need for all people. Justice for all requires government intervention when basic rights are abridged by the profit motive.
November 30, 2009 at 7:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Wright_Winger says...
Who are the uninsured? It is difficult to separate the grains of truth from the chaff of misinformation provided by proponents of government takeover of health care. The very first misstatement of fact is calling the pending legislation health CARE reform when in fact it is health INSURANCE reform. The only reform the legislation would make to health CARE is to increase costs for all and decrease availability for many, especially the Medicare and Medicaid populations. A recent report from the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) stated the $500 billion budget cuts for Medicare contained in the legislation would undoubtedly result in fewer hospitals and nursing homes accepting Medicare patients.
But, back to the uninsured. Who can we trust to provide accurate stats? An exhaustive study by the Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured is a generally accepted standard. You can locate the documents on-line and study them yourself if you wish. PolitiFact is a fact-checking organization which liberals consider their "bible" of truth. They checked some statements made by Sen. Orin Hatch regarding the uninsured and found them reasonably reliable.
See the PolitiFact article at:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-met...
Senator Hatch identified the uninsured as follows:
Undocumented non-citizens, 6 million
Non-citizens not eligible for gov't sponsored health care, 4 million
Uninsured citizens with annual incomes over $75,000, 9 million
Eligible for Medicaid or SCHIP but not enrolled, 10 million
Eligible for employer sponsored insurance but not enrolled, 6 million
American citizens without affordable health insurance options, 12 to 15 million.
Why can't we concentrate our efforts and dollars on providing health insurance for the 12 to 15 million without an affordable option and leave the other 300 million alone, most of whom are reasonably satisfied with their present coverage?
The letter writer says it is not in dispute that 45,000 Americans die every year because they don't have health insurance. That figure is not substantiated by any accepted studies and is just more "chaff."
November 30, 2009 at 7:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
What some people miss is there are people who do not qualifiy for medicaid programs because they make to much and they still do not have medical insurance because what they do earn is not enough to live and buy health insurance.These are the ones who make up a very large number of the uninsured.People who are working and cannot afford to have the employer provided healthcaree plan because of the cost.They chose between paying the bills,rent,and food for their family's.These are not people who are not working and trying.You also have people in this economy who have lost their jobs and their cobra benefits were to expensive even with the goverment paying 70% of their premiums for 9 months that they as well do not have health insurance.People need to open their darn eyes and see we need some form of reform.
Health insurance company's have been robbing the american people for years and continue to raise deductibles and take benefits away each year and raisse the premiums each year and this is because of the uninsured the rest of us wit hinsurance pay their medical bill oneway or the other.
Drug company's continue to raise prices every year and rob us as well you know you can buy the same drug accross one of our borders for a lot less.I think the last administration made this illegal to do now because they wanted to take care of their buddies in the drug companys.People who lobbied them and gave them a bunch of money.
Hospitals and doctors continue to raise the cost associated with their services.This as well is to cover the cost of the uninsured.
Now after all of these things which cost each american tax payer people still want to sit and cry about things and say we do not need reform.YES WE DO and we need it this year and both party's need to work together and make it happen.
Almost forgot what about the people who cannot get insurance because they have a medical issue and the insurance company's will not insure them?
November 30, 2009 at 7:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalearch says...
I'd like to know where people get the idea that they have a "right" to healthcare. (?)
Just because you have a "need" for something doesn't mean you have a "right" to it.
November 30, 2009 at 8:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Wright_Winger says...
The re-importation of prescription drugs myth.
It was not President Bush's decision to block importation of drugs. FDA studied the issue and released their opinion that the safety and efficacy of out-of-country drugs could not be guaranteed and refused to approve the practice. Without FDA approval no drug can be put on U. S. prescription formularies. This one you can't blame on President Bush.
November 30, 2009 at 8:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
I think when you walk into a hopital there is a sign there telling you have a right to medical treatment if you can afford it or not!!!!! So why would people not have a riht to healthcare insurance?I guess a select few think people with no insurance do not affect our insurance.I think they need to look at it a little further and ask why our premiums keep going up.It is to pay for the under insured or the uninsured and this is also the reason for high medical bills.Some people just need to get a clue.
November 30, 2009 at 8:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
The drugs on either side of our border are the same as they are here.I used to have a neighbor that was a doctor and he would get his medication from accross on of our borders.I would not think with him being a doctor if the medication was not the same he would have done this.
November 30, 2009 at 8:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
striped_tigerfan says...
dalearch....thank you for that comment! That is my thoughts exactly.
Many of us have gone without health insurance at one time or another in our lives simply because we could not afford it....and we didn't "run" to the doctor or emergency room for every little ouch.
We didn't even give a thought that we had a "right" to healthcare. Just accepted the issue of not being insured and went on with life.
November 30, 2009 at 8:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Look people we are not talking about little ouch.We are talking about major medical issues.Get a clue what is going on in our country in the healthcare industry.You do not think you pay for the programs such as medicaid for familys?If they had a opportunity to get health insurance and have to pay their fair share this would save our country and us.Ok them lets just let all unisured people who legitamatly canot afford it for their familys get medicaid and see how much the goverment pays then.I am not on the right or on the left I just believe people should have insurance and can keep a open mind to the fact.
November 30, 2009 at 8:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
77cod says...
You live in la la land and yes in a perfect world all would be insured and we would not have to foot the bill as all would be working/contributing. However, in the real world that does not work. We now provide housing for all that want it and yet look at how well that has worked. To wreck the country for a few is not fair/equal or moral. REform yes, insuring every one can't and isn't fair. Now if your democrat friends would also go on the same plan and pay and get same benefits then lets see how it works. That won't happen either because they want to dictate how we get health care but don't you dare include them they are happy with what they got and by the way the majority of people don't want the government crap either, so why do we HAVE to have it? Because the community organizer and his tax evading socialist cronies want it for us.
November 30, 2009 at 8:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Wright_Winger says...
mm1967..."The drugs on either side of our border are the same as they are here."
Try suing the Gomez Pharmacia when it turns out the Yaz you were buying there was nothing but baby aspirin.
November 30, 2009 at 8:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Ok lets just continue down the road we are on and never change.It is easy to never change and change is always hard.But the fact remains some form of reform is needed.If we continue down the path we are on now the number of uninsured wil continue to grow and grow and who knows it may just get to you.
November 30, 2009 at 8:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Wright_Winger says...
mm1967..."who knows it may just get to you."
Yes, if the Democrats succeed in cutting Medicare reimbursements to the degree that doctors, hospitals, nursing homes, etc. will no longer accept Medicare patients it will definitely get to me.
Back in the 1930's an innocuous group calling themselves the National Socialist Party came up with a scheme to eliminate "undesirables" from their society. They called it the Final Solution.
The scam the Democrats are trying to foist off as "reform" could well be their version of a Final Solution for the elderly, especially the elderly poor.
November 30, 2009 at 9:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalearch says...
With all the tainted & poisonous products coming out of China do you really want to take drugs from there?
November 30, 2009 at 9:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bdog says...
i do think we need health reform and i do not think we need
a government run health care, as far as all of those who do not have health insurance, many of them do not want health insurance, because they think they do not need it, and then there are those who say they cannot afford health care, but yet can afford to set there and talk on their cell phones which cost more that heaalth insurance, while wating to get free care at the health clinics, i do not spend my money on cell phones, i would rather pay for a medical plan for my family than pay for cell phones
November 30, 2009 at 9:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
I also do not beleive that they should mess with medicare benefits or benefits for the VETERNS.But some form of reform is needed for the rest of the american people and it is up to all of the bumps in Washinton D.C either dems or republicans to work together and get something done not act like children fighting with each other.
November 30, 2009 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalearch says...
I don't think anyone on either side on these forums believes that we don't need at least some degree of healthcare reform, but to screw up the entire system to help just a few makes no sense at all.
Tell our illustrious "leaders" to design something for us that they would themselves be content with and I'd bet my bottom dollar it would be passed.
November 30, 2009 at 9:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
xfiremanfarmer says...
To my Republican friends let's be mindful and intelectually honest .President Teddy Roosevelt, Richard Nixon , and Dwight Eisenhower saw the need for health care reform. So for each generation we've sat on our hands. We conservatives (republicans) have been part of the problem rather than the solution. We had the the oval office when the Big 3 automakers asked George Bush on 1/2/08 to do something about healthcare because they could not effective compete with the foreign makers. Our republicans in Congress could have acted a few months ago on the AMA's President suggestion of allowing the noninsured to buy into the federal employees health benefit plan where 19 million Americans get their isurance from Blue Cross, Aetna, Coventry, Humana, Prudential and 1300 other insurance companies and making those individuals pay from 280 to 550 per month on their own. Emergency room care is not the same as hospital surgery, expensive tests, follow up visits, medicines, and such. By just allowing those that could afford a cheaper rate will save us all money. But Our Republican Senators and congresspeople choose to take big money from the insurance companies and let those with pre-existing conditions die - like my working republican son almost did. We republicans are part of the problem . Next time it could be one of your loved ones or even you.
November 30, 2009 at 10:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
torg says...
bdog, what's being proposed is a public insurance option for those who can't afford a private one, NOT a nationalization of the healthcare industry.
November 30, 2009 at 10:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Wright_Winger says...
It's not only Republicans taking the "big money" from the health industry, here are the top recipients in Congress for the current election cycle:
Reid, Harry (D-NV) Senate $615,675
Lincoln, Blanche (D-AR) Senate $474,950
Specter, Arlen (D-PA) Senate $456,010
Schumer, Charles E (D-NY) Senate $443,250
Wyden, Ron (D-OR) Senate $365,900
Grassley, Chuck (R-IA) Senate $321,510
Pallone, Frank Jr (D-NJ) House $313,050
Burr, Richard (R-NC) Senate $306,632
Meek, Kendrick B (D-FL) House $300,350
Murray, Patty (D-WA) Senate $283,620
Hoyer, Steny H (D-MD) House $280,260
Dodd, Chris (D-CT) Senate $262,570
Price, Tom (R-GA) House $234,525
Pelosi, Nancy (D-CA) House $228,500
Blunt, Roy (R-MO) House $227,373
Hatch, Orrin G (R-UT) Senate $222,437
Kirk, Mark (R-IL) House $219,260
Stabenow, Debbie (D-MI) Senate $212,190
Twelve of the top eighteen recipients of health industry contributions are Democrats.
Source: FEC and OpenSecrets.org
As for the AMA's suggestion, the majority Democrats would had to initiate the enabling legislation, the Republicans could not have introduced any bills on their own.
November 30, 2009 at 10:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bigbob says...
I'm all for health care reform, not what the congress is pushing, but basic coverage for the sick or injured. i don't have specific numbers, but there are Americans who in this economy make too little to qualify for Medicaid. I'm much less supportive of abortion on demand, substance abuse rehab and elective procedures. Heartland is good to forgive debt to those very poor, but the supporting staff aren't. A minimum wage worker breaks an arm, goes to the ER. Care is provided and the hospital forgives the debt. the Dr. reduces his fee, the x ray is still full fare as is the cast. so the guy making $250 a week and paying for shelter, utilities, and food owes six months pay that he can never deal with, and the collection hounds are on the attack. That needs fixed.
November 30, 2009 at 10:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Wright_Winger says...
The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates the Democrat public health insurance plan will cost MORE than similar private plans:
"The public insurance option would typically charge higher premiums than private plans available in the exchange, according to the Congressional Budget Office analysis of the House bill."
"That surprising conclusion raises doubts about Democratic promises that a government-run insurance plan would provide a lower-cost alternative to consumers."
Source:
http://www.politico.com/livepulse/100...
November 30, 2009 at 11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justsayin says...
"Wright_Winger November 30, 2009 at 8:43 a.m. Try suing the Gomez Pharmacia when it turns out the Yaz you were buying there was nothing but baby aspirin."
That one made me laugh!
I completely agree that we do need health care reform.
Having no insurance is not immoral. But charging so much to fix people when they are broken just might be immoral.
Who is responsible for the high cost of health care? The doctors blame the insurance companies and the insurance companies blame the lawyers and the lawyers blame the doctors and no one--no one--is willing to take responsibility for the high cost of health care. If everyone were a little less greedy, maybe everyone in the U.S. could actually access affordable health care. There is no reason on earth that a doctor needs to earn $900,000 or more a year in order to live.
November 30, 2009 at 11:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justsayin says...
From the business perspective, we just renegotiated our insurance for employees for 2010 and were able to keep it from going up too much by adopting a less comprehensive policy. More than half of our employees will still opt out of it, though, due to the cost. Even with us paying half the premium, individual employees will still be responsible for about $300 a month. When you make $8 an hour, there are better things you can do with $3,600 a year--like rent and utilities and food and stuff. So you cross your fingers and hope you don't get sick and opt out of insurance.
November 30, 2009 at 11:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalearch says...
justsayin:
I was with you until your last sentence: "There is no reason on earth that a doctor needs to earn $900,000 or more a year in order to live."
Are you sure you want to go down that road? What if the next time "they" tell you that there is no reason for you to earn $30,000 or more a year in order to live? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't even get out of bed for $30,000 per year.
November 30, 2009 at 11:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
torg,
If a public "option" is in this bill, employers all over the country will CEASE to offer employer health care plans....or at least stop paying their portion of the premiums. Thus, millions of employees will be FORCED to enter the public "option". Basically, there will be NO option for many. I can tell you without a doubt....I KNOW my employer will do that. Sure....just like the President and members of Congress have insisted, I CAN keep the current health care insurance I have.....I'll just have to pay the entire premium myself....which isn't really an option.
Plain and simple, folks....there is no doubt about it....this is a move toward socialized medicine. There is NO DOUBT that it will severely limit your access to health care professionals. Are you aware that we're already experiencing a shortage of doctors and nurses?
November 30, 2009 at 12:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
StJoeMike says...
Ok:
While you can urge the congress to pass the health care reform bill, I urge the Congress to find the moral backbone to make Abortion illegal..
Mm1967,
I believe the sign in the hospitals refer to the right to receive service.. Not the right to receive free service.. The sign is not saying that the treatment will be free.. It just simply means they can't refuse treatment because your uninsured. The misconception is that it is free.
Justsayin,
You said, "There is no reason on earth that a doctor needs to earn $900,000 or more a year in order to live." That is very dangerous.. Dalearch is exactly right.. Who has the right to say if someone earns too much money.. I don't know how much money you make nor do I care but I am willing to bet there is someone out there that believes that you make too much money.. I mean does A Rod with the Yankee's really need $27,500,000 a year to live?
November 30, 2009 at 1:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
xfiremanfarmer says...
wright winger, You might want to go to gop.gov for the republican house bill. And I'm pretty sure that the senate republicans have offered up something. Unlike the previous 8 years that our party didn't do anything on healthcare reform.. Hurrah for us. We offer up a plan that serves 3 million and not 30 million. And we are to brag about that? I don't think so unless I'm selfish.
But we are the same ones that opposed social security and medicare and now our people scream to protect them. Go Figure..Can you say hiprocracy? We could have negotiated in good faith and sought to be a solution finder instead of being the party of NO. And we could have supported the AMA's (a Conservative group) president but our mouthpieces in the form of Graves, Bond, Roberts, Lynn, Brownfield just stirred crap up. They have their's while many do without. AND Yes, The insurance companies wanted it their way and they Paid off Both parties, But republicans are supposed to stand for values, we sure come up short on feeling the needs of others than our own on this issue. When you see your grown son almost die because of acute asthma, born with it, you might want to ask would the Chrisitan Conservatives of the Republican Party be willing to sacrifice their loved ones for the jackels that represent us in Congress ?
November 30, 2009 at 1:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Wright_Winger says...
Having the time to spare and a personal interest in the matter, I have spent many of those hours and minutes listening to and watching the sausage mill of Congress grind out the health insurance legislation. C-SPAN carries all the public hearings, committee markups and actual House and Senate debates and floor votes. You might say "get a life" and I wouldn't disagree with you; it is a dirty job, but, as they say, somebody has to do it. C-SPAN also carries a daily 6 to 9 AM call-in show with lines supposedly divided by Democrats, Republicans and Independents. About half the calls that come in on the Republican line start out with "I have been a Republican all my life, but...." and then go on into a liberal rant similar to xfiremanfarmer's above. Typical comments include "party of NO", "Christian values" and the like, all obviously phonies. Many also have some personal tale of woe to spin which somehow is the fault of Republicans, especially Reagan and the Bush's.
But, to the legislative process as I have personally seen it unfold on TV and computer monitor. There were three House bills marked up in committee, merged into one, sent to the Rules Committee to set the terms of floor debate, debated on the floor of the House and passed by a three-vote margin. In the committee markup sessions, Republicans were allowed to offer and did offer amendments. Some very minor amendments were accepted, but ALL the meaningful Republican amendments were defeated on party line votes. When the legislation was brought to the House floor, only one Republican amendment was made in order by the Rules Committee and it was defeated. Imagine that!! One day of debate and one amendment allowed on a 2,000-plus page bill of huge import.
The three Senate committee markups were similar in nature to those of the House, perhaps with a bit more comity, but the results were the same for the amendments offered by Republican Senators. Then, to merge the three Senate bills, closed door meetings were conducted with only Democrats in attendance, both senators and their staff and white House staffers. The floor debate on the Senate version started earlier today and is expected to last at least through December and possibly into next year.
Just a few corrections for the record: The AMA is anything but a conservative organization and represents less than 25% of medical doctors.
The junior Senator from Kansas is Sam Brownback, not Brownfield.
November 30, 2009 at 2:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
striped_tigerfan says...
I have a bellyache from reading some of these comments...so I'm gonna check in at our hospital emergency room; I sure wish I had insurance because I sure can't pay the bill...oh wait, I'm entitled to having healthcare so who cares! You see, I have a lot of bills this month like my Blackberry cell phone, Lexus car pymt, the 1999 Bahamas vacation (yeah, still paying for that), the diamond ring I just couldn't resist and all the other misc monthly expenses. What I had left I gambled away at the boat and on and on. I just cannot AFFORD health insurance!
The above scenario isn't my situation but it can be applied to many uninsured. I'm not trying to be heartless but sometimes people make unwise choices on how they spend their available funds and then think they cannot afford health insurance. So do I think that Medicare funding (not Medicaid) should be cut to pay for those people so they can continue to carry on their luxury buying? - I'll let you commenters on here decide that answer.
Yes, we do pay through the nose for those who require services and are unable to pay by our increasingly higher insurance premiums and medical bills. But, if someone can explain to me why it's any different now then it was years ago, I'm all "ears". I still contend that health insurance is not a "right" - it wasn't then and shouldn't be now.
And by the way, people - Medicare is NOT free - the letter to the editor in yesterday's paper was an excellent explanation of Medicare funding.
November 30, 2009 at 3:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JoeFreedom says...
President Obama has made the case that it is "morally wrong" when thousands of Americans die every year due to lack of medical coverage, and that's the reason why Big Government should fix this "morally wrong" situation. Since when is the Government's role to solve "moral" problems? That's the purpose of churches, charities and other civil organizations. Government's role is to enforce the law and defend our nation. And while "property" is a Constitutional right, "universal health care" is nowhere mentioned in the Constitution. Besides, it is equally wrong for the Federal Government to steal taxpayers' money in order to buy votes of certain sectors of society.
Is it "morally wrong" when people die because of lack of health care? YES.
Is it "morally wrong" to loot taxpayers? YES.
Should Government address "moral principles"? NO.
Should Government handle health care reform? A resounding NO!
Even if you could make a plausible "moral" argument for the unprecedented step of demanding that all Americans buy insurance -- not in exchange for a particular privilege such as driving on public roads, but simply by virtue of being alive -- you would be hard pressed to cite the constitutional authority for such a mandate. And besides, I ask it again -- why on earth would anyone in their right mind entrust their health care to a bunch of politicians who have failed in everything they've done? It's a total, absolute joke.
November 30, 2009 at 3:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
StJoeMike says...
Hey JoeFreedom,
Thousands of babies die each year from abortions and I don't see the presiden't doing anything to change that.. Your right.. I thought we were supposed to kep our Morals out of government. Right?
November 30, 2009 at 4:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
You know healthcare reform is going to pass and like I said before I am not on the right or the left on this issue other than to say we need reform and it will happen and if the ones on the right want to be part of the solution so be it but the ones who do not will have to live with it.
Xfiremanfarmer,
Your post above is good and to the point.A few more should read it.
November 30, 2009 at 5:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalearch says...
striped_tigerfan:
In your first paragraph you forgot the part about people having their front teeth capped with gold so they can have some "bling".
November 30, 2009 at 5:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JoeFreedom says...
Some of us answer to a higher authority, StJoeMike. As a Christian, I value human freedom over any socialistic government trying to shove their power down our throats. Never mind their pathetic record of failure, it's simply fundamentally wrong. The reason Christians place such a high value on human freedom is that freedom itself is part of the creation account in the Bible. God made humans in His image. He gave us a free will to choose to love, follow, and obey Him, or to follow our own way. That free will, given us before the Fall, is part of human nature itself. Perhaps more than anything else, it was this understanding of individual freedom that turned me into the kind of patriot who would willingly give his life for his country. It was the words of the Declaration of Independence that inspired me to join the Marines: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." So this question of human freedom goes to the very heart of who we are as Christians and as Americans. Health care is a crucial part of that very freedom.
November 30, 2009 at 5:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
striped_tigerfan says...
dalearch...yes, I did forget about the teeth "bling" and I also forgot about the necessary tatoos and body piercings!
November 30, 2009 at 6:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
mm1967,
So, the government is going to "save" us from the "bad ol' insurance companies"? Who's going to save us from the government???
November 30, 2009 at 6:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Wright_Winger says...
striped_tigerfan...body piercings will be AMA coded as ambulatory acupuncture.
November 30, 2009 at 6:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
xfiremanfarmer says...
We have discrimination in health insurance for those born free of birth defects, those without the financial means, those that have age related diseases, and do I dare mention gender and race based medical problems or some unfortunate persons who have been involved in some sort of accident. Heck why wouldn't insurance companies want to insurance only the ones that don't make claims ? If we all live long enough we are going to incur those conditions. Government serves a purpose to preserve life and liberty whether it be at a fire, war, or at the hospital. If one wants to exclude those that don't fit in - we might want to look back into history and see that we fought wars about discrimination and sanctity of life. I don't see the difference except that the parties are self serving and benefit mostly the politicians that we vote into office. Big business or big labor control them like puppets and their egos serve them more than us. What we really need in this country is a third party of common sense. As to those who think that government needs to stay out of morality, that is to broad of statement to make. Is it moral to kill, injure, molest, steal and on and on ??? And to those who wonder how we got into this mess. 20 years ago there were numerous charitable hospitals mostly operated by different faiths. They took in the uninsured. They competed with the corporate for - profit ones and prices stayed low. Now it's reversed. Winger, thanks for the Brownback correction. I too watch a lot of that stuff on the tube, it's depressing when you realize that it all a show. A popular state rep told me once about reps. putting on the act when going to the floor, and he observed that much of legislation was like a chess game. Furthermore, he told me that he couldn't imagine how many moves the guys in washington where thinking ahead. WE are pawns for the politians egos. Bob Dole, the former republican senator from Kansas headed up a commission recently to study health care reform . He said that reform was needed now. Dole could negotiate honestly and effectively with those across the isle. This new crop of congressmen and senators just want to say no.They are being paid to be problem solvers and not self serving egotists.
November 30, 2009 at 6:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
pops
Have you not had some form of of goverment in your life at some point in your life?I know for a fact you have it is called IRS do you not?What happens if you do not pay them for years or file I think it is called Leavenworth.Look I have said I beleive they need to leave medicare out of this but I have alos said they need some sort of reform and for those who do not like the fact the little guy may get some health care that the rest of us have enjoyed the opportunity to have is plan BS.I believe every child should have some form of heath insurance as well as every family should.You all say get out there and earn it well pops some are but cannot afford health insurance they make enough to make ends meet.Are there some who could but do not sure there are but to label all people that do not have health insurance and to object to everybody having it is just crazy.I do not believe that the boverment should tell us who we can have insurance through and fine us if we do not but make it affordable for all is a must.Like I said healthcare reform is going to pass and the right can be involved with it and be part of the solution or they will have to live with what ever form passes.It almost sounds as some people will be jealous if other have health insurance.
November 30, 2009 at 7:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
striped_tigerfan says...
Wright_Winger....if as you say that body piercing will be AMA coded as ambulatory acupuncture, does that include the related body jewelry that goes along with it? If so, I'd like a diamond studded belly button ring...
November 30, 2009 at 9:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
recordsetter816 says...
No job = no health insurance!
November 30, 2009 at 9:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Wright_Winger says...
striped_tigerfan...do you want the football version or the basketball version?
December 1, 2009 at 5:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
No28301016 says...
I found little value in any of the posts here. If there is all this "I know better than you" going on with regard to the big picture of "health care" and "insurance", let's hear what you know about our picture locally. Disassemble that for me and explain what going on here in St. Joseph. You can start 100 years ago or work in backwards from today. Is there a "regional solution" to "health care"? What can we do here to become an example of the "way it should be"?
December 1, 2009 at 8:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalearch says...
Below is a link to a website that asks the question: "Do you feel Members of Congress should be forced to enroll themselves in the health care plan they vote for?"
I hope you chowder heads that vote "no" have at least enough common sense to ask yourselves why you voted that way.
http://fleming.house.gov/index.cfm?se...
December 1, 2009 at 8:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
OfCourseWeCan says...
The writer did an excellent job of putting health care in perspective. I would add that in addition to being a moral issue - indeed a human rights issue - it is also a national security issue and an economic growth issue.
Cannot afford health care? Of course we can. What we cannot afford is war and I would advocate for financing continuation of our military presence abroad with a war tax that puts it on a pay as you go basis. Then there's all of that unspent stimulus money that could go to health care.
Support our troops, bring them home, safe and soon.
December 1, 2009 at 9:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justsayin says...
"dalearch November 30, 2009 at 11:56 a.m.
justsayin: Are you sure you want to go down that road? What if the next time "they" tell you that there is no reason for you to earn $30,000 or more a year in order to live? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't even get out of bed for $30,000 per year."
Maybe that's the problem--too many people not willing to get out of bed for $30k or $150K or $10k a year. And no, StJoeMike, I don't think ARod needs $27.5 million a year to live, nor do I think his "goods" are really worth that kind of money.
I have to say that I do make good money, especially for the field in which I work and for the fact that I am a woman. However, I know I could live on a lot less--mostly because I have. I don't think anyone should dictate how much money we should make or how much we need to live, but I do think that from time to time, we need to take a good hard look at ourselves and determine whether or not we are living morally and ethically--and part of that determination needs to include our greed factor.
We are very fortunate in this country--many of us have the ability to make a lot of money.
The question is, do we need it? Or more accurately, do we need to pull in the kind of money we do and live the kind of lives we lead at the expense of others who don't have the skills and capacity to make enough money to properly care for themselves but are doing all they can to try?
December 1, 2009 at 11:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justsayin says...
"No28301016 December 1, 2009 at 8:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I found little value in any of the posts here. If there is all this "I know better than you" going on with regard to the big picture of "health care" and "insurance", let's hear what you know about our picture locally. Disassemble that for me and explain what going on here in St. Joseph. You can start 100 years ago or work in backwards from today. Is there a "regional solution" to "health care"? What can we do here to become an example of the "way it should be"?"
You go first, No.
December 1, 2009 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pops says...
mm1967,
What I'm TRYING to say is that while the government is attempting to save us from the insurance industry, which we can ALL agree is out of control, they will, without ANY doubt, do more damage to the economy and to personal health care.
I don't begrudge anyone their health care. I have zero confidence that the government can do anything to fix this problem. Why? Their track record of "fixing" things is terrible...THAT'S why. You cite the IRS. That and the US Postal Service are two agencies that SCREAM beauracracy...are way too bloated for their own good, and for sure, the IRS is WELL known for making huge mistakes, and ruining people's lives as a result.
Personally, if I were you....I don't think I would have cited the IRS as an example of government involvement in our lives.
December 1, 2009 at 2:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalearch says...
justsayin:
I don't know what you do for a living, but I don't make my money "at the expense of others who don't have the skills and capacity to make enough money to properly care for themselves but are doing all they can to try?"
Do I need to make the money I make:yes, I think so. Especially if I want to maintain the lifestyle I've worked hard to earn.
You're always going to have people without the skills or desire to succeed like others want to. This is actually a good thing. Somebody has to put the lettuce on the Whoppers.
December 1, 2009 at 2:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lbc says...
Just saying.........
I'm not sure I track your thoughts. First of all all folks are not born "equal". Some are tall...some are small. Some are smart, some are dumb.
I didn't end up 6'10" so Michael Jordon gets a few more bucks than I do.. He's not getting his millions at my expense.....but he does get them.
And, then theres what folks choose to do. At one time in my life I chose to work my tail off.........6AM till 12 PM. I paid the price...didn't see as much of my kids as I might have,etc,etc. So, it's not clear to me why someone else should sit on their duff and enjoy the fruits of my labor.
I guess I don't want the Government to get in the middle of this and make decisions "for me". The 10th Ammendment says they won't but the politicians who I suggest have a private agenda have elected to put the Government in the middle of everyone and everything and make those kind of decisions...Under our law they don't have that right....but it sure hasn't impeded them. Enough already
December 1, 2009 at 4:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
StJoeMike says...
Looks like the Liberal brain washers have managed to get to justsayin. Greed? Give me a break. Greed is defined as.. "Excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions." What is excessive? Who gives you or anyone else to determine what is excessive? Some people may think that you live an excessive lifestyle. Do you have a cell phone? Do you NEED it? Now none of us NEED a cell phone.. The world got by fine for hundreds of years without one. So are you being greedy because you have a cell phone? Some may say that is an excessive desire for a possession.. Are you being greedy when you accept an increase in your salary? Is your company being greedy because they are trying to turn a profit, in turn making the shareholders happy.
December 1, 2009 at 4:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
This is not about personal beliefs it is about healthcare reform that provides health insurance for people no matter how much or how little money you make.It for all american people.And if you have been paying attention the ones who have health insurance it will not affect your insurance.your life will go on as it is today if reform is passed.Anyway you look at it some form of healthcare reform is needed.
December 1, 2009 at 6:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalearch says...
"And if you have been paying attention the ones who have health insurance it will not affect your insurance. your life will go on as it is today if reform is passed."
Just keep drinking that Kool-Aid like a good little brain dead liberal.
December 1, 2009 at 6:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
dalearch,
I have said I am not on the right or the left on this issue.But it seems to me as those on the right are a little upset.I would like to really know why you all are so upset and why your party cannot quit acting like spoiled children and work together for some kind of reform everybody can be happy with?Or is the republicans just full of people who are full of themselves today?Like I said I am not supporting Dems or Republicans just for once they should just be working together as Americans and doing what is good for the american people and all of the american people not acting like school yard kids fighting over a game they are playing this is no damn game.The republicans had the last 8 years and their party did not walk into a hell of a mess that this administration has.I would say for the good of the country in several areas they need to put their differences aside and work together.But will that happen hell no both sides are to darn stubborn to admit wrong.And for your info Mr Dale Arch I am not a brain bead liberal and I also am not a snootty republican.
December 1, 2009 at 10:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mm1967 says...
Also the STATUS QUO you all seem to like is not working anymore and it not good for the american people either.
December 1, 2009 at 10:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lindoris says...
When Thomas Jefferson mentioned life liberty and the pursuit of happiness in the Declaration of Independence, what was the "life" part about? I thought we had a right to live. There was no medicaid or medicare then, but would TJ have mentioned it if appropriate?
And in the preamble to our constitution wasn't there something about promoting the general welfare?
I am sure many of you will be more than willing to correct my misinformed education.(provided by the SJSD)
I was raised a Christian. I was told the Bible said to help my neighbor. If that means I have to pay a few extra bucks to provide a home and health care for less fortunate, then so be it. After all, I don't want them living in my house and neither do you.
The ability to remain a healthy taxpayer should be a right. Sick people are not productive taxpayers.
The system is broken. Even I as an $8.00 an hour employee (probably working for one of you) I don't believe I am entitled to free health care. I am willing to pay, just don't believe paying for insurance should preclude eating and shelter. I don't own a Blackberry and drive a Lexus. I have a 18 year old car that I pray makes it through every week. I have a leak in my roof that means I have gotten a part time job to save for repairs. I haven't asked anyone for help. I also believe the majority of uninsured out there are in the same boat I am. Sure there are people "working the system" or sucking off the government teat as my dad used to say, but I believe that is a tiny minority.
This health insurance reform bill is being pushed down everyone's throat poor, rich, republican or democrat.
If someone can come up with a productive way of stopping Congress from dumping this bill on us, I will be the first in line to help.
I am just asking, but why don't I hear of any other country having this debate about health care?
December 2, 2009 at 6:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )