This in my view continues to provide validation the present direction in November is the wrong direction. We either need it or we don't. If we need it, then argue for it correctly and get the confidence to do so. No in November!! Argue correctly.

As I have stated the current levy in it form does not address the long term financial needs of our district.Also if it passes they will be back within a couple of years and we will be doing this again and they think they have a trust issue now.They will never get anything through the votera again.This article even stated this much.All our leaders need to do is get a little dirty and work with thte community for a long term levy that involves the community in all areas of town and wit htthe communitys support we have plently of time and we are not going to run out of money while this is being worked on.No In Novemeber as well till they get it right for we do not have to do this over and over and over.

*******************

The present direction caved to the Reeder approach. They caved, there is no confidence to argue for true future state, because there is a huge resistance to engage the entire community. I do not see what is complicated about this, we as a community need to have the confidence to show off all elements of our school district in all areas of town to outsiders and should not have to worry about image or how we are progressing, if we cannot do that, or progress towards that, or properly fund it, then there will always be struggle. St. Jo is behind the times, this is the 21st century, we are behind the times because areas of the community are neglected. We can neglect all we want to as a community certain areas of town because of percieved perceptions, but it does no good, it only hurts the community as a whole. Where we are at today is evident of that. It is No in November.

No they are not out of line Apple and my comments are not devisive. Certain sections have been neglected. Granted it does take individual responsibility to make some improvements. Take a hard look at public right of way issues and the neglect of downtown. And if those areas have always voted no on issues, then we should figure out why instead of blowing away 50 years. There are reasons, justified or not and if you cannot engage those reasons, we have what we have. It is in the best interest to find common solutions because sections of town that appear to struggle affect the whole. Downtown and its present state has an affect on the entire community whethe we address it or not is another matter. Why would we not want all areas to be viable econonomically and on the educational front?

apple October 11, 2009 at 4:25 p.m.

"John I think those comments are extremly out of line and divisive"

How are John C's comments divisive? It is difficult to argue that areas of St. Joe aren't consistently ignored.

john courter , i give far less credence to reeder's ability to turn this election than most do. i think the district's failures to identify the shortcomings of their campaign got the best of them. no one heard the rumblings from the rest of the city until the tide had turned. to continue that metaphor, the district now has to work back from the high water mark of discontent, when the tide had only just begun to turn at the time of the failure of the bond and levy. the extra-sunset reasons have risen and i wager there is far less support for the levy than there was at the time of the very close loss previously.

the NO/NO vote resulted from a lot of issues. the loudest opposition was based on the sunset, so more importance is given to this single issue. if you made a pie chart of all the variables on the failure, i believe that you would have a very small slice of reeder followers.

since i don't give credit to the reeder tactics i see the addition of the sunset as a non-starter in the passage of the levy. we still have a community which is justifiably shell-shocked by an economy which fell farther than most could have believed. we still have a BOE which has an election coming soon that could by itself make voters more agreeable to not only a permanent levy but one which is more supportive of the district. we still have no long range plan or community outreach program. add to that list a group of parents who are very unhappy with decisions made since the NO/NO vote and multiply the economy fears,the distrust of the district .........

remember if the vote is NO in NOvember there are still multiple election dates after november in which to make your voice heard. a vote NO now is not a vote which can't be changed to a YES vote after the general election. in fact, whether you vote YES NOW OR NEXT YEAR it will not contribute a single dollar to the sjsd until after this tax year expires. the vote for the children vote Can be best served by what john courter advocates.

a lot of the areas you talk about apple are probably rentals. you shouldn't just write them off because of their location. thats why we have this mentality in this town of the haves and have nots. so we just won't reach out to them. most home owners like me take care of my stuff,my problem is some of the rentals here in north end. landlords need to take some of the blame.

as for mr.schaff,maybe he wins because he trys to actually do whats right. he listens for one reason. maybe thats why he gets elected each race. or maybe folks saw heartland try to buy the election and put one of their own in. especially some reporter who addmitted he was just looking for a job. i always figure if a large corp. is upset with the rep. he must be doing something right.

so maybe we can get past finger pointing and and calling folks mobs. it sounds like the obama pepole.

apple October 12, 2009 at 9:23 a.m. "It plays into the people like mm who beleive they get nothing in their part of town and everybody else gets everthing."

If Mr. Courter perceives that to be the truth, what is he supposed to do? Stay silent? Based on my experience of being in St. Joseph for over 42 years, I think his perspective is probably more accurate than yours. Even our City Manager, Vince Cappell has publicly expressed concerns about a declining Mid Town area. If the City Manager will admit it, it must be a relatively accurate perception.

I, personally will not be voting YES to give the school district more money until Melody Smith is removed from the school board. I have two children that went to Neely, and have been redistricted into Hyde for this school year. I had to change my work schedule so that I could be home with my kids when they got off of the bus, instead of them being able to walk to their daycare which was located one block away from Neely. My families lives were totally thrown upside down because the SJSD couldn't use any money from their 30+ million in reserves to run Neely and Webster for another year while they waited to put the levy back on the ballot.

What truly shocked me is the time it took from when the levy renewal failed, to the time they decided that the schools needed to be closed. Less than one week.

I don't know if I'm alone here, but I think that the SJSD wanted the levy to fail, so that they could have an excuse to close two schools in the poorest parts of town, and spread out the children from those schools to average out the test scores. I wonder if school district was going to be losing any sort of funding because of low test scores at Neely and Webster so they just decided to close them instead.

I had Melody Smith as a teacher when I attended Benton High School, and she was a pompous, arrogant, snooty idiot then too. And I will never vote to give her more money. Especially when they have that much in reserves.

wedge47,
I could not agree with you more they could have kept Neely and Webster open futher into the future then they did and I also agree they acted to Harshly and quickly in their decision to close the schools and do all of this redistricting.They would have been better of leaving the schools open and coming back to the community and earning the communitys trust and involving the community in a long range finacial plan to put tho the voters with the community's support that would have passed and then worked for a long range plan to either renovate Neely and the older schools and biuld on school to the NE qith community involvement.Nut the have chosen a different path and this path it to follow the GOF and chose not to engage the public and like you have said create undue hardships on family's this year that did not have to happen.Now they are asking for money on this levy again and will be asking for the bond later down the road and I do not think they have a clue as to what damage they have done out in the public and how they are percieved in the community because of their actions.I will not vote for it as well because it does not address the financial needs of our schools and also because of the things you have mentioned as well.On another note I am glad Smith was not at Benton when I was there several years ago, glad to see one of her student tell it like it is and how they see her.I see her the same way and she thinks she is above the rest of us and does not have to answer to the community.I think she is getting ready to find out how much she does answer to the community come Nov 3rd.I fell your pain and hang in there and make sure you vote nov 3rd for they get a clear message how the midtown area feels.

i will again, vote no twice! or just once, but it still will be no!
thank God for private schools!

apple October 12, 2009 at 12:57 p.m. "So let me ask you plain and simple, what do I get from the city living in the East that you don't get in the South or North?"

First, I live in the NE.

Second, how about the TIF's for North Shops, East Hills, Greystone, Twelve Oaks, Carriage Oaks, Corinth Square, Stonecrest, etc?

All of those TIF's took money right out of the SJSD pocket while having no requirements to invest in new schools - which is why we are in this mess!

John H
you are correct look how long it took to get any TIF money for the shopping center where Mernards is at it still is not fully devloped like the shops out north was.Theae are just little things but little things in the community's eyes go a lomg way.

My understanding is TIF may be the incorrect technical term for the subsidies provided to the developers of the above referenced developments. However, the concept is similar - new taxes are used for paying for infrastructure otherwise the responsibility of developers.

I want to be clear - this is not a commentary on the appropriateness of the use of the resource, but rather an identification of where those public resources have been expended. Clearly the NE has benefited.

Carriage oaks, 12 oaks, stonecrest, etc did not get any incentives like tif. Greystone has a TIF primarily for off site improvements like cook road and sewer extensions. The district loses very little money. If anything the district would have benefitted as the sewer would have served the cook road school.

Menards did eventually recieve tif money. The development is called the commons. I don't know how successful it has been.

Shoppes is a county project with a city tif. It has to move into private hands in order to pay taxes. I think olive garden and heartland across the street have tif money too.

apple - you are missing the point. It is not that the incentives have been given, but rather, the NE has received benefit from the incentives. Some perceive that the NE has received a disproportionate amount and are therefore raising the issue. I am not arguing the appropriateness nor if the perception is completely accurate.

My point is that there are those who have a perception and we need a culture where our citizens are comfortable asking tough questions and getting straight answers without being labeled a hater or someone who simply wants to disagree with everything.

It is also important to remember -

Those who eat steak shouldn't look down their nose as they drive past McDonald's at those enjoying their treats.

Those who have the benefit of an education shouldn't limit the network of those who have learned from the school of hard knocks simply because it doesn't have the same pedigree.

While venturing into the new world, it is important to remember your history so you aren't doomed to repeat it.

While partnerships can be forged with common goals and interests, without trust, there is no collaboration nor cooperation.

Sections of a community shouldn't be excluded because they:
- Aren't affluent
- Aren't as educated
- Aren't as accepting of change
- Aren't trusting of the community

You will never convince me the vast majority of St. Joe's parents don't fundamentally love their kids and want "what is best for them." We all just have very different definitions of those concepts and how best to achieve them.

apple October 12, 2009 at 10:09 p.m.
"John I don't get that at all and I guess is the whole problem."

The original point of the post was not where the money was invested, or that it was invested at all. The point was that someone in the community has a perception about which they are raising a concern. You called raising the concern divisive. My point is how else can he discuss the issue withou first raising it. Hope that explanation helps a bit - I wondered off topic a bit too on my earlier posts.

The issue, as I see it, is that SJSD has done a lousy job connecting with the public. There is not an individual with people skills in the SJSD administration. Since they do not understand the need for people skills, they don't understand that they ought to encourage their teachers and staff to become involved in the community.I think their biggest problem is that they have tended to sit in their offices and evaluate people from afar. I am not a life-long St. Joseph resident, but I do go back to the days when George Blackwell was superintendent. I can honestly say that there has never been a district administration in St. Joseph as inept as the current one is. The idea of closing 2 schools, relocating so many young people, asking for more money (knowing that 2 years later you're going to ask for more), without a public relations plan, is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Their business is people. I don't think they understand that either.

apple -
"yes - anyone who does not realize change is needed - go away you cant help because like it or not change will happen the only thing we don't know is can you control the change -"

So close, but yet so far...

We can't exclude anyone - especially those who fear change. They are the ones that need to be involved the most because it takes time for them to get comfortable with the new ideas.

One could say you want to stick with the culture of the last 50 years and are adverse to changing to a modern approach to community engagement. Does that mean we should exclude you or invest in your education?

dilly/apple - OMG, I think we are all reaching a point of agreement. I bet h, yougotta, mm, pops, and about everybody else will agree that we must start actively engaging the community.

John H,
Yes you are correct about the engaging the whole community it is time.
Now as far a eatting at Mcdonalds I can afford to have my children eat steak every night but my children seem to like Mcdonalds as they are children.We also give our children a allowance every week but they also have things aroundhome they are responsible for such as keeping their rooms clean and such.This is called responsibility.I also am raising my children to understnd what a dollars is and how to make choices and do the right thing. I am also raising my children even thou my daughter is little pris not to look down on anybody because of where they live,how much money they have,if they have a handicap,or if they are mentally challenged.I am teaching my children to treat everybody equally apple you may try this.I am raising my children to respect the moeny they earn and to be respectfull and caring citizens of our community.I am not raising spoiled brats or convicts.

Fear of change is human nature and is seen eveyday in our entire contry not just here.You have employees that have done something the same way for years and they are shown a better and easier and less time consuming way and they will still resist.But what I have found is if you get in there with the people who fear change and work with them you will get a lot further then shoving change and tellingthem what is good for them you will get further.Little thing called teamwork goes a long ways.

apple October 12, 2009 at 10:02 p.m. "In a nutshell - it is important to remember - It is important to understand that for some, going to McDonalds is a treat, while it is also important not to be envious of those who can afford to eat steak everynight."

johnahickman October 12, 2009 at 10:18 p.m. "It is also important to remember - Those who eat steak shouldn't look down their nose as they drive past McDonald's at those enjoying their treats."

We should also keep in mind that just because we have steak doesn't mean we should slap people with it.